MitsuStyle - whats up

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MitsuStyle (http://www.mitsustyle.com/forums/index.php)

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- - whats up (http://www.mitsustyle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17791)

Pushit2.0

12-03-2007 04:54 PM

Re: whats up

Welcome to Mitsu Style. With your setup I would install a FMIC and ARP head studs then port the turbo or try a LIPP cast o2 housing that we sell to fix the boost creep. Then turn it up to 20-21psi and it should make good power, then if thats not enough buy DSM link and try E-85 to max out the 16g.

~John

GsXtUrBo98

12-03-2007 04:55 PM

Re: wats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew7dg (Post 219435)

Do you have 680cc or you want to go to 680cc

If you have them you are set

You just joined and already there are plans from on how to modify your car!

ya i have the 680cc all that is done to my car is what i have done to it!! and i was told by LSE that if i turn the boost up that it would creep higher...

GsXtUrBo98

12-03-2007 04:59 PM

Re: whats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pushit2.0 (Post 219445)

that all sounds good but i ran into the issue with the tranny and now im stuck driving it in the winter and being at 10 psi in the winter should be fine im thinking.. but that also gives a chance to save up and do it all in the spring.. LOTS OF PLANS FOR THE SPRING!!!!

JET	12-03-2007 06:57 PM

Re: wats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by GsXtUrBo98 (Post 219447)

and i was told by LSE that if i turn the boost up that it would creep higher...

That is not correct. Boost creep comes from the wastegate not flowing enough, that has nothing to do with what the boost is set at. A boost spike will raise with the boost setting normally.

scheides

12-03-2007 07:13 PM

Re: whats up

+1 (again woot JET), you should be able to turn your boost up to, say 16psi, and then it will rise up to 19psi by redline from the boost creep. You should then also be able to set your boost at 19psi, and it will not rise much if any by redline. If this is not the case, something else might be amiss...weird MBC or something?

I love the LIPP housing that LSE sells, it is awesome and I highly recommend it. On the same note, might be $$ more well spent on porting and DSMLink, so you can run E85 next summer :D

GsXtUrBo98

12-03-2007 08:07 PM

Re: whats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by scheides (Post 219459)

so what your saying is if i port and do a dsm link it would stop my boost creep also??? or do i have to go with the LIPP in order so stop the creep??

JET	12-03-2007 10:29 PM

Re: whats up

Just porting would cure the creep, or you can port the turbo and put the LIPP on to stop it. Link won't do anything for creep, he was talking about running E85.

scheides

12-03-2007 11:19 PM

Re: whats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by GsXtUrBo98 (Post 219463)

so what your saying is if i port and do a dsm link it would stop my boost creep also??? or do i have to go with the LIPP in order so stop the creep??

Ya like JET said, porting will help creep, and skipping the LIPP housing could earn you more money to be spent on DSMLink. With that being said, the LIPP housing is AWESOME, and not a waste of money in either way. I used it for about a year on my 2G, and I loved it. Just options options options for ya.

GsXtUrBo98

12-03-2007 11:31 PM

Re: whats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by scheides (Post 219483)

well i appreciate the input on everything that you and jet have been saying there is just so many things that i wanna do to it.... i want to be running about 18 to 19 so if i just turn it up to 18 or 19 it shouldnt creep beyond 19 like you said....

i really want dsm link.. i already have a laptop that i just got like a week ago and i really want 272 cams!! i just cant make up my mind on what im REALLY gonna do next??? if what you say about the 16g being good for some power then i might stick with it for now but i really want to hit 300awhp by next summer :)

JET	12-03-2007 11:40 PM

Re: whats up

SAFC should be fine for a 16g. I would do cams next.

blageo23

12-03-2007 11:42 PM

Re: whats up

The only problem with running E85 is that there is no gas station around us that sells it. The closest one is on lexington and 35E or on 96 in whitebear. I wanted to go to E85 but noone sells it. Do you know if the gas station at the end of ware rd sells it?

GsXtUrBo98

12-03-2007 11:45 PM

Re: whats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by blageo23 (Post 219491)

no they dont im really not sure about who sells it around us. you obviously know more about who sells it around here.

blageo23

12-03-2007 11:47 PM

Re: whats up

Cuz I want to run it REALLY bad. They need to sell it somewhere around here damnit!!!!

GsXtUrBo98

12-03-2007 11:50 PM

Re: whats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by JET (Post 219489)

SAFC should be fine for a 16g. I would do cams next.

ya but i have an idleing prob and i would like for my car to get a better tune on it...

i went to the dealership and they put a new IAC motor in my car and they set it at 750rpm's and i really dont like its too low so i try to turn it up but even if i do a little at a time the computer resets it back to 750 and i wanna run about 850 or 900 at idle....

JET	12-03-2007 11:53 PM

Re: whats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by GsXtUrBo98 (Post 219499)

ya but i have an idleing prob and i would like for my car to get a better tune on it...

You need to fix the problems then, don't just throw parts at it. You car should always be running good before you upgrade parts, right Swifty??

:lol:

GsXtUrBo98

12-03-2007 11:54 PM

Re: whats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by blageo23 (Post 219495)

Cuz I want to run it REALLY bad. They need to sell it somewhere around here damnit!!!!

so whats so special about E85 if i dont sound stupid asking

blageo23

12-03-2007 11:58 PM

Re: whats up

Higher octane. You can run higher boost, only bad part is you use alot more fuel.

JET	12-04-2007 12:00 AM

Re: whats up

Yep, cheap and you can run almost 30 psi on it.

GsXtUrBo98

12-04-2007 12:02 AM

Re: whats up

wow ok well thats something new that i learned today.. thanks for that input

GsXtUrBo98

12-04-2007 12:42 AM

Re: whats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by JET (Post 219500)

You need to fix the problems then, don't just throw parts at it. You car should always be running good before you upgrade parts, right Swifty??

:lol:

dont get me wrong, it runs good i just would like for it to idle at a higher rpm and it just wont do it for me plus i need to fix the lifters on the cyl. head anyways so while im getting that done i might as well just put cams in there ya know what i mean...

its not like its something i need just what i want!! ha ha

Andrew7dg

12-04-2007 12:52 AM

Re: whats up

I would stick with pump gas, don't go to E-85 yet, plus isn't E-70 now? RETUNE!

You would need to upgrade the injectors again because the 680cc would get maxed out. You are set up with a good S-AFC and injectors. Leave the system alone for right now. Look at fixing your creep (but with those injectors you can let it creep up to 18-19 psi and be fine if it does), upgrading to a FMIC, Cams, ARP, list will go on.....

Plus if you are thinking about switching to a 6 bolt block, save the money for that.

I might have one available coming this spring, once I remove it from my car.

GsXtUrBo98

12-04-2007 12:55 AM

Re: whats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew7dg (Post 219517)

i have a 6 bolt block already i just want it cleaned up and then im going to re-use the 7 bolt cyl. head and shit but its gonna cost me 700 for the 6 bolt to be rebuilt and then 1800 or so to swap it at MAP

JET	12-04-2007 01:42 AM

Re: whats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by GsXtUrBo98 (Post 219516)

dont get me wrong, it runs good i just would like for it to idle at a higher rpm and it just wont do it for me

Have you tried the idle adjustment screw? There is that and the BISS. You should do a boost leak test too.

GsXtUrBo98

12-04-2007 11:09 AM

Re: whats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by JET (Post 219520)

Have you tried the idle adjustment screw? There is that and the BISS. You should do a boost leak test too.

that screw is what i tried and at LSE they did a boost leak test for me.. but what is the BISS??

Pushit2.0

12-04-2007 11:57 AM

Re: whats up

base idle set screw.

sleepydsm

12-04-2007 12:39 PM

Re: whats up

swap the engine yourself. save yourself the money. blageo23 has a ton of experience and wouldnt mind helping. you should check out his car in person...

niterydr

12-04-2007 12:53 PM

Re: wats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by JET (Post 219405)

Boost creep is caused by the wastegate not flowing enough. You will likely have to get the turbo ported and the O2 housing. 205 isn't too bad for low boost, get the issues figured out, then turn it up! Also, if you turn the boost up to 15 psi, it will still creep to 19, it won't make it creep higher.

Yes on needing wastegate work, incorrect on the ability to crank it up down low, here is why:

Most of the time it is an overall exhaust flow issue. The wastegate is getting choaked/can't bypass enough, so most of the time you have to start the boost lower than you'd like so you don't end up overshooting. Severe boost creep (like this car has) nearly makes the damm car nearly supercharged, increase in rpm is an increase of boost, and it says linear* when you are running into a flow restriction.

* It is not directly linear as you run out of compressor efficiency, but with his car it was shooting for 20+psi easily, something I didn't want to do on a smic w/o timing control on a 16g.

Welcome to the forums, glad you figured it out!

niterydr

12-04-2007 12:55 PM

Re: whats up

Then again maybe I am wrong, I only tune cars for a living and have set the boost on a 500+ of them by now... He was having a boost control issue, aka his wastegate wasn't flowing, aka he needed to address it with the ability to flow more air. If you give the compressor wheel a running start (aka more boost down low/allowing the wastegate to remain closed longer) why WOULDN'T it go higher? Again, Justin, I understand what you are saying, but his car was going higher on its own will, its a pretty common problem actually, something I get to deal with on 1/2 the dsms I work with. Unless we have a proper wastegate on it (or a good boost leak) the car will build 20+psi by redline easily, yes it will hold, but that overall boost spike will continue to rise until you run out of efficiency.
I really doubt we would tell a customer to keep the boost down for shits and giggles...

blageo23

12-04-2007 01:20 PM

Re: whats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepydsm (Post 219554)

swap the engine yourself. save yourself the money. blageo23 has a ton of experience and wouldnt mind helping. you should check out his car in person...

Thanks for volunteering me! But I would be glad to help if you got a place to work on it. And NOONE gets to check out my car in person until it runs!!! haha

Pushit2.0

12-04-2007 03:19 PM

Re: whats up

Welcome again, darn winter now we will fight untill spring....
Here is a car that did the same thing, we did head studs and a AFPR and now its fine running that much boost.
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/4...reepgj1.th.png
~John

JET	12-04-2007 07:49 PM

Re: whats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by niterydr (Post 219562)

Then again maybe I am wrong

From my experience, yes, you are wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by niterydr (Post 219562)

I only tune cars for a living and have set the boost on a 500+ of them by now... He was having a boost control issue, aka his wastegate wasn't flowing, aka he needed to address it with the ability to flow more air. If you give the compressor wheel a running start (aka more boost down low/allowing the wastegate to remain closed longer) why WOULDN'T it go higher? Again, Justin, I understand what you are saying, but his car was going higher on its own will, its a pretty common problem actually, something I get to deal with on 1/2 the dsms I work with.

You need to think about this a bit longer, Swanny. Having the boost set higher does not make the boost creep worse. The problem is an inability for the wastegate to flow enough out of it and the exhaust is flowing too much. This almost always comes from an upgrade of the exhaust, but no upgrade for the WG path. This causes an imbalance that the stock car doesn't have. This is easily fixed by porting of the turbo, and if it is severe enough, porting of the O2 housing, or an O2 housing upgrade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by niterydr (Post 219562)

Unless we have a proper wastegate on it (or a good boost leak) the car will build 20+psi by redline easily, yes it will hold, but that overall boost spike will continue to rise until you run out of efficiency.
I really doubt we would tell a customer to keep the boost down for shits and giggles...

The problem he is having is NOT a boost spike. He has boost creep, 2 totally different issues. Boost spike is shown on John's graphs, that is the spike when the boost first hits. A boost spike will get worse as the boost is turned up. Boost creep is the ramping up of boost also shown on John's graphs. I have fixed many cars with boost creep issues just by porting, many people on here have used them and they work fine. Porting will fix his problem, period.

Pushit2.0

12-04-2007 10:09 PM

Re: wats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by JET (Post 219405)

... Also, if you turn the boost up to 15 psi, it will still creep to 19, it won't make it creep higher.

The point of my graph disproves this idea, on this set up atleast, I am sure it can go either way.
So how do you like the forum so far?

~John

JET	12-04-2007 11:29 PM

Re: whats up

Tuning can obviously change boost creep also. If you tune for more power (at the point boost creep starts) then even more exhaust will go through the exhaust and make the boost creep worse. Try only turning up the boost on a car once, I bet it doesn't go higher for boost creep. I was fighting this with my car for a while, those were the first turbo's I ported. I was logging on my AEM and the boost creep did not get worse when I turned up the boost. I have seen the same results first hand with probably a dozen cars, several are members on here.

I would like to hear Shane or Mo chime in on the subject.

LSE boys, don't take my posts the wrong way. Technical banter on here doesn't come around often, so this is interesting. I am not trying to bash you guys or anything. What you are saying is the opposite of my 1st hand experience and the opposite of the physics I can come up with on the subject.

GsXtUrBo98

12-05-2007 12:03 AM

Re: wats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pushit2.0 (Post 219643)

The point of my graph disproves this idea, on this set up atleast, I am sure it can go either way.
So how do you like the forum so far?

~John

im likin it alot!! all this input is great and i didnt know that my car would set up so many arguments just about boost creep and fixing the problem... ha ha

MustGoFaster

12-05-2007 08:54 AM

Re: whats up

I've seen it go both ways. On cars with big exhaust (3" all the way or similar) and stock waist gates it tends to be the higher you set it, the higher it creeps type situation. Josh's $800 Talon worked this way when we put the exhaust on it. Crept like a mofo till we did something to fix it (ported turbo, or external dump, I forgot what we did)

We had an Audi in here that was similar, it would creep to ~21 on straight WG setting, with the inital at 18 it would creep to 24, about all they wanted to run.

My GVR4 had a 14B, with an external dump O2 housing, it would boost creep if it was "cold" outside (50F) with the boost low, but not when it was warm (65-70). I could also just set it higher and not have issues, but this is when I first got it running so I wan't comfortable with it yet.

It seems to me, On cars where the creep goes away when you turn it up, the WG itself isn’t big enough. On cars where it creeps higher the higher you set it, there is a WG flow path issue.

Pushit2.0

12-05-2007 12:03 PM

Re: whats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by MustGoFaster (Post 219672)

... It seems to me, On cars where the creep goes away when you turn it up, the WG itself isn’t big enough. On cars where it creeps higher the higher you set it, there is a WG flow path issue.

That seems to be a good way to put it. JET on the tunning end of it, retarted ignition timing will make a turbo creep, so adding ignition timing if you are not at MBT will make the turbo creep less. This might help with to small of a waste gate or a waste gate flow path issue but if thats the problem turn the boost up more, or fix the flow issue. So we now move all the post with tech to the tech section?

~John

niterydr

12-05-2007 12:44 PM

Re: whats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by JET (Post 219629)

From my experience, yes, you are wrong.

You need to think about this a bit longer, Swanny. Having the boost set higher does not make the boost creep worse. The problem is an inability for the wastegate to flow enough out of it and the exhaust is flowing too much. This almost always comes from an upgrade of the exhaust, but no upgrade for the WG path. This causes an imbalance that the stock car doesn't have. This is easily fixed by porting of the turbo, and if it is severe enough, porting of the O2 housing, or an O2 housing upgrade.

The problem he is having is NOT a boost spike. He has boost creep, 2 totally different issues. Boost spike is shown on John's graphs, that is the spike when the boost first hits. A boost spike will get worse as the boost is turned up. Boost creep is the ramping up of boost also shown on John's graphs. I have fixed many cars with boost creep issues just by porting, many people on here have used them and they work fine. Porting will fix his problem, period.

My thoughts exactly he has to work the wastegate housing by increaseing the size of the bypass OR a higher tension spring.

BUT is is a flow related restriction, so if we turn the boost up down low, it will continue to creep as the wastegate isn't displacing enough air. I have seen this in HUNDREDS of cars. You can starve off a creep by tuning ignition timing, having the boost come on lazy, or decreasing wastegate force up top (ebc applications only). On this setup, he should just port the turbine housing/upgrade the 02 and call it done.

That is my point is he can't just set it to 15 and expect it to stop at 19, it doesn't work like that.

GsXtUrBo98

12-05-2007 03:21 PM

Re: whats up

ok to all of you.. you all have very good points of view and when it comes down to it i think the turbo being ported and a diff o2 housing is in order for me, plus i think im going to do a fuel pressure regulator

blageo23

12-05-2007 03:27 PM

Re: whats up

MAP is having a special on FPR. Buy it now!

GsXtUrBo98

12-05-2007 03:35 PM

Re: whats up

Quote:

Originally Posted by blageo23 (Post 219710)

MAP is having a special on FPR. Buy it now!

ya i talked to them today and they said something like 130

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