E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

I've been following this on the Link board, and thought I'd see if anyone local has experienced this.

A few people have noticed some black oily/tar build up on the tips of their injectors after running E85. They said when they burn that black gunk, it smells like burning oil. So far no one seems to know what it is, or why it's there, including the people at FIC and RC.

It seems like the people having these issues are all running FIC injectors (not the new Bluemax ones). FIC is claiming that their Bluemax ones are E85 safe. But it's their older ones (1150's, white top 1600's) that people are getting this black oily/tar build up at the tips. I run the Blue Top ones from PTE, and mine are perfectly fine. I've put on quite a bit more miles then some of these others with the build up also. I personally have had no noticeable adverse affects from running E85 as of yet. It also sounds like people with both stock hard lines, and aftermarket fuel lines, are both having this issue.

Anyhow, I just find it interesting, and wondering if there's anyone here that's noticed this? If you have, please say what injectors, fuel lines, etc... you are running.


Here is one pic that kinda shows the gunk
http://dsmlink.com/forums/attachment...1&d=1235468310

And Here is the WORST case I've seen yet
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...0/DSC02929.jpg

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

Taken from EvoM:

"Precision Injector Users Using E85 Beware
Just got some good intell from AMS as my car is up there getting worked on for "09", they where checking everything thing over as a good shop would do and ran into a little issue. It seems that the E85 has eaten up the hoods on the Injectors and disrupting the flow pattern. But hears the catch they have only been on the car for about 3K miles using E85. Now precision is going to warrenty these but will more then likely not any more. So if you have or are running E85 and using Precision Injectors I would recomend checking them out just to be safe. Oh and BTW AMS is offering new Injectors from Deatschwerks that are supposed to able to run methanol and E85 safely and also come with a 1 year warrenty, which I am switching to. Thanks for reading"

http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-eng...85-beware.html

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

I have heard ethanol has the ability to eat rubber so maybe that gunk is "melted" seals?

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

Shit ill check mine in the morning. Is this an injector issue or an e85 issue

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

Bman what injectors do you have?

I will take a look at my FIC 950s when its time to or close to starting her up.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

I have the Blue Top 1600's. I bought them from LSE, which I believe got them from PTE.

Thanks for the link Hughes. That's the first I've heard of someone having an issue using PTE injectors. Everything I've read have been on FIC injectors.

I did just check mine out yesterday, and mine look good as new. Plus I've had them in and out occasionally just from working on things, and I've never noticed this on mine. But I am contemplating sending them in to get professionally checked out.

TWACK - It is an issue a few have reported when running E85. Nobody seems to know yet what the goo is. It appears to be accumulating at the tip of the injector, but that doesn't mean the injector is the root cause. The root cause is what I'm interested in finding out.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

Anyone who finds this on their injector should look at the back of the valves and in the ports.

Or quit putting black RTV on their injectors.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

why would anyone put any RTV on injectors?
Actually my old FIC 1600s looked messed up like the others do.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

craig gave me his pte 1600 when we parted out his talon and they look just like new and they were in the car for over a year on e-85. It was his DD

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

I noticed this crap on my FIC 1600's when I just put them back in my motor. I thought it was just build up but now that it is mentioned, it does seem like melting end caps. So will FIC send you new ones or replace them so this doesnt happen? I can see if they stated that they wont wirk with E-85 but as far as I know nothing was mentioned when I bought mine so they should fix this issue for people running E-85.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

My PTE880s were super messed up, but not quite as bad as the one carnage pic you posted. My FIC 1600s also had a little buildup on them, but nothing melted, just a little gunk.

I replaced my fuel filter twice since I switched to e85 a year ago, hoping that would solve the issue.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

hmm. im going to go check mine pretty soon.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

PTE was our injector supplier.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

^and apparently E85 compatible.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

I have been following the thread on link as well and just went out and checked my injectors. I had no goop on mine at all. Thats with roughly 3k miles with the old ford 1600's, 255 walbro, completely stock fuel feed lines from the tank to the filter and filter to rail, stock fuel filter, stock regulator, and mostly almost all e70, only one tank of true e85 was ran though it while trying to work out all the bugs.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

This was the answer David got from PTE on Evom
"I called PTE first thing this morning. They told me this is an isolated incident that they have not seen before. He is going to check with the manufacture of the injector though and verify that it is just odd."

So what I am understanding from this thread is most people seen the black stuff on FIC injectors and only a few isolated incedent on PTE injectors. I was going to switch my car to E-85 when the summer mix comes around. Nice thing I got two to three months before the good stuff comes around. Giving a chance to see what is really going on here.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

For an E85 car the FIC BlueMax injectors seem like the safe choice.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

^Thats what I have been reading also. not to mention the low resistance (?) low ohms are easier for tuning.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

Is it the injector isolator melting or is it just crap from the fuel lines?

It was my understanding that E85 cleans out your fuel system and flushes any crap in it to your injectors. That's why it's recommended to change your fuel filter a couple times after making the switch. People who neglected to do so ended up with clogged injectors and fuel filters.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

Or the Deatschwerks from AMS, but they are only available in 750's, 880's and 1600's. Not to mention they have a 1 year warranty, thats probably what I'll go with. Plus they are only $308 for the set, not bad at all.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

I don't think this is related to E85 at all. We were working on that same problem on a car that didn't use E85.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

^Care to expand?

I think that it could be from tuning, cause i know the tune on my 1600s wasn't perfect and they were messed up, looked like the tip was melted.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

I just pulled my PTE 1000cc injectors and they seem to be perfectly clean, I have been running e85 on the stock lines and dual pumps in the tank.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

I pulled my sending unit apart the other day and The insulating sock/tube that goes around the pump was all shriveled and brittle.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

GSXTACY had the same problem with his 950's. I wasn't sure what it was but I had thought maybe it was from improper cam timing since it was a 2.4 with 2.4 cam gears. I figured the intake valve was opening too early and exhaust was going past and burning the tips of the injectors.

I have verified on my 2.4 while it was on the stand that neither mitsu cam gears (either 2.0 or 2.4) get fp3 or fp3x cams in correct time. Degreeing the cam is the only "true" correct way to get those cams in correct time with a 2.4 block and belt. I also verified it with FP.

Anyway, he swapped his 950's for 1150's. The car never did run right, poor idle, kinda a "popping" out the exhaust and flowing the wrong amount of air at idle. So he bought adjustable cam gears and I degreed the cams in. Car ran perfectley after and flowed the correct amount of lbs/min.

That was last fall, we never did get to re-tune the car. This spring I'll tell him he should check his injectors.

I am running the older FIC 1600's with 3000 miles on them. I guess I should pull them and check them too.

Just something to think about. I doubt all of these cars that are having this problem have these cams and 2.4. I doubt they have improper cam timing, but again just a thought. Could exhaust be getting past the intake valve?

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

its sad, but most people don't even degree their cams..it's just thrown on stock gears, and buttoned up.

-A. Swift

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

^Because most people buy cams that can be dropped in.

Also I know that it is best to degree cams, but not every setup calls for paying for cam gears that cost as much as the cams.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

The problem is, nobody makes a cam for a 2.4 block and 2.4 timing belt. All the dowel postions on the cam are made for 2.0 or 2.3. The car may run, but perfect timing is not possible on a 2.4 with out degreeing.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

even so aaron, NO cam is PERFECT right ot the box, dropped in. measure them all, and nothing would be on. Some are closer then others, but still..not perfect.

-A. Swift

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

Back on topic.. on link some guy has been doing chemical analysis on the black goo. Apparently it's nothing related to combustion, he concentrated a gallon of e85, got rid of the ethanol and some other stuff (complicated process I don't understand), and was left with a gooey substance of the same chemical compound. So it's definitely coming from the fuel itself, not lines or anything like that.

They still don't know why it's in the fuel, but they are hypothesizing that it could be molecules that dissolve in gas but with the high ethanol content sometimes break out and build up. People who occasionally run a tank of regular 91 don't seem to have the goop problem anymore.

This was all done in the past couple days so I'm sure more info will be available soon.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

Yeah I read all that. Interesting stuff. I found the diesel theory interesting. They mentioned since it's not happening to everyone, maybe it's Station related. If you are at a gas station that used an old Diesel tank as there now E85 tank, maybe some of the old diesel junk is partially contaminating the E85. 99% of my E85 I run comes from the Holiday right by my house, and I've never had any issue.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

But one guy who gets the e85 from a brand new station is getting the buildup, who knows. I hope they find out exactly where it's coming from.

When I have the head off next week I'll check out my injectors to see if the new BlueMax injectors are getting buildup even though they're e85 "safe".

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

Hmmm... Yeah I hope someone figures it out. I'm far from an expert on chemicals. All I could do was give them my info on my setup, and hope someone smarter then me figures it out. But so far I'm glad I've had no build-up at all.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

The chemist over there who seems to be taking a lot of personal interest into this found this article.

http://www.lubrizol.com/press-room/m...onProc2-08.pdf

As of now, sounds like he's leaning towards the build-up being related to specific stations fuel additive packages. Meaning nothing to do with injector brand, type of fuel line, filter, etc. Different companies use different additive packages. So depending on the mix your station uses, may directly effect how much of this build-up you may see.

Just a theory so far, but seems to have some factual basis behind it.

If this really is the cause, apparently the Holiday in Blaine has a decent mix as I've yet to see this issue on my car :)

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

I use holiday at blaine too, don't use the one on lexington, i always have problems when I fill there.

Whats the deal with these bluemax injectors?

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

Just the newer better version of injectors from FIC. Check them out they are on MAPs site for the DSMs and Evos.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

Again, according to his research, it appears this may not be an injector issue at all, but a fuel issue. From what he's presented, it looks like this could happen no matter what injector you are using.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

I have only been running e-85 on my injector for a little over a week now, maybe I will take them out in a couple weeks just to see if I have that going on too. I have only been getting my e-85 at the holiday on hwy 96 and 35w

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

Thanks for that. Anyone with any information on these bluemaxs. I know that some are having a fun time dialing them in, i also understand they have a lower "resistance" ( i don't think thats the word i'm looking for)

Anywho, can these big injectors run pump gas easy? I assume so from the low ohmage.

Re: E85 Injector Issues... Anyone?
 

Update.

I have FIC Bluemax 1650s. I took them out today, and 3 of four have the black goop on them. I almost 99% of the time get my E85 from the Holiday in Blaine on Lexington/35W, since I've had these injectors. I replaced my stock filter once after running E85 for a month. I've had these injectors on since the early spring ever since I started using E85 (so lets pretend like 7500 miles).

Anyone know a good way to clean this shit off? Or should I have the "professionally" cleaned?