Bastard 20G?
 

98 Tsi, AWD, Auto, 650 Injectors, 255 FP, dsmlink, Apexi N1 Exhaust, Injen Intake, EI FMIC.

What do you all think of this interesting hybrid turbo on the above car <my present system?>


http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=1977&

Looks like it could be a nice and easy to install power upgrade with that 20G comp wheel and TDO6H Exhaust side?

This would be a much simpler direct swap with my present bad Big 16 with all the oil, water, return and outlet fittings being exactly the same?

What's your 2 cents?

TIA......

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

That is a pretty small 20g... It is like the one Jim (talon Fiero) had. I would definitly upgrade to the tdo6 exhaust housing if you decided on getting it. That would bring the price to $1000 where IMO you would be better off getting a buschur 20g. Being an auto, you may want to opt for the port job to help increase spool and as you are going to be running an external wastegate, you may want to research the turbo more and see if you should get it clipped to help prevent boost creep.

I believe there is a company who will upgrade your turbo to the same setup which would probly be cheaper. I would check with FP or extreme.

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

it is fp, forcedperformance.com, its only like 375 i think, it sounds like a hell of a deal to me, and forced performance has some awesome turbos, so they have to know what they are doing.

ps ok, wait, they upgrade to the 18g.....here is the webpage, but i would still definatley think about it http://linux.forcedperformance.net/m...egory_Code=DSM

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

Well if I'm remembering the specs on the FP Sleeper 16G correctly, we can compliment Slowboy on copying the FP Sleeper 16G: http://linux.forcedperformance.net/m...Code=DSM-Turbo

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

I'm now also looking at this PTE Turbo as well:

http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=2190&

I know I'd need a new 3" intake, and Extreme Intercoolers will let me swap the outlet LICP pipe to fit a this turbo as well.

My question is what kind of changes would I need to make for the water and oil lines from my big 16 to install this new PTE SCM-5031E model?

Or is this SCM-5031E going to just be way to laggy on my Auto?

Should I stick to the smaller Bastard 20G for faster spool up, but less power?

Just looking for the right fit for my setup?


TIA.....

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

Get a higher stall and lag won't be a problem, at least from a roll. Maybe some nitrous if lag is a problem from a stop. :)

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

So Shane, you'd then go with this SCM-5031E, vs. a mitsu 20G, or this SBR bastard 20G overall?

Tranny, NO2 are going to have to happen next year, IF I want to continue to stay married!

For now just need the right size snail?

Many Thanks.....

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

That is such a waste of money for "around 400whp". The Evo III 16g at half the price is good for almost that and has done 400whp in one car. If your going to spend that much why not get a AGP RS49T or a RS60T. Then when you do your tranny work and possibly get nitrous and you will be set. A 20g would probably be your best bet but if you want a new turbo, its going to be easier and cheaper to find a 50 trim. Just my $.02 on this topic.

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

If you go with the PTE 50 trim, you will need to block off the coolant lines as they do not take coolant lines. You will also need an oil line kit and possibly have to order a cast elbow to be welded on hte outlet pipe.

This is Carlos posting under James' name...

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

Thanks much for all the great input gents.

I agree that the SBR Bastard 20G looks to be overpriced vs the EVO3.

I like the ease of install for the EVO3, but really would like a bit more power?

Also still kind of spooks me not have any water cooling, as I would like to keep this turbo going for a while?

A standard 20G uses water cooling, and should be good for about ~450 HP right or?

What are the details to swap in a 20G as far as the lines, and elbows?

TIA.......

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

Did some more digging, and finally decided on this one, in prep for next year.

<Jet, you know atleast I didn't go with the V Trim..........:->


http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=2198&


Damm the the Torpeados.....

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

The 20g and 50 trim weren't big enough huh? You will need a bigger intake and probably some braided turbo lines now.

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

The braided lines and 3" intake are on the way!

Just gotta figure out how to properly block off those water lines now?

Thanks for your help!

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

I'm pretty sure Shane was referring to upgrading your Torque Converter in your automatic. What modifications have you done to your auto?? If I remember correctly from your For Sale Ad, you hadn't listed anything for the tranny. The automatic is a pig that needs 3 things (IMO) for it to get results.

- Higher Stall Torque converter from IPT (Since it appears you have money to blow I'd say get the 9 1/2 inch Billet Converter)

- End clutch kit

- Shift kit

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

I hope you ordered a a big FMIC kit. You were worried about lag and you chose this turbo????? Nitrous would be a great choice now, increase spool and help you get out of the hole quicker.

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

The FMIC is a bar and plate 31 X 7 X 3.5 with 2.5" hard short route piping from the outlet all the way to the TB. Suppose to flow 800 CFM?

I agree I need both all the Tranny upgrades and the NO2, but that's just not going to happen this year cash wise. I'll just have to live with a laggy pig this summer and next spring upgrade again when I can afford to do so.

In the long run I think it's a solid plan, vs just dump it and take abiut a $10K bath.

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

Good luck getting the 31" i/c in front of your car. You will have to cut the crap out of the front frame rail, remove it or have longer route pipiing for it to work. You will probably need to remove the bumper support because it would be a bitch to cut. Are you planning on installing this stuff yourself? I know autos have a small chance of walking, but do you know if your car is crankwalking or already walked? You will want ARPs and a new HG for that turbo also.
I blew past my new copper sprayed HG 2 weeks ago with my 60 trim and that was on a run with 1.83 counts of knock. That gasket lasted 2 pulls so I don't think your stocker with stock head bolts could stand a chance.

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

Supposely this FMIC will fit into a 2G, just measured it and guess it's only 30" including the end tanks. One way or the other were gonna have to just make it fit. Both my son, godson and myself are going to try to do as much work as we can do without stretching our skills too much to wreck stuff. Good point on the ARP's and the HG, will just have to turn the boost way down till I can get qpr or some good wrench to install them, as I never even seen them get installed, and don't want to wreck my junk ass 7 bolt, just yet.......:->

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...ssPageName=WDVW

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...bayphotohosting

Do you mean 650 cfm? Here are the links from before. I am not so sure I believe it will go in without taking out the support. It looks like it is 2.8" thick so it might. I have only installed 3.5 inch ones. It looks like you will most likely be running long route piping the way the end tanks are or at least not have to cut the frame rail. On slowbubblecar's 2g, his core is 28" long and his endtanks pointed straight towards the engine so he had to cut a lot. It should be a good setup when it is done though.

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

My mistake, the standard"Hybrid" tube and fin 2.8 width flows 650 cfm, this custom model bar and plate @ 3.5" width suppose to flow @ 750 cfm.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/show...e+intercoolers


"Just a lil fyi, they have two 7" kits. One flows 650cfm and the other flows 750 cfm. The full bar&plate is the more flowing unit. So I think it should handle a 50trim fine. I just ordered my 7" bar&plate kit on monday. Total w/ shipping was $820($45 for shipping)

Thanks again for the great insights guys!

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

30-31" FMIC will fit fine on a 2g. You probably wont need to take out the bumper beam across the front seeing its only 7" high. You will need to shave quite a bit off the back of the bumper cover to get it to go back on right but nothing major. My FMIC is 30.5x12x3.5 and all I had to do is remove the bumper beam and cut the bumper cover a little. Really wasnt all that big of a deal. Short route piping was easy to fab up and everything went together good. Shouldnt be too difficult for you. Good luck with it.


Whenever Mike gets out of the hospital you might want to talk to him about welding them shut for ya. If your a good welder or know someone that is then that would work too.

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

Thanks much for the great tips man, as still just a n00b, I need all the help I can get to try to make this happen!

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

Just saw this post up at "tooners".....


Looping the waterlines is a super easy job. A 12" piece of hose and loop from one to the other, no big deal.

Oil cooled turbos are designed to be only oil cooled and will last just as long as an oil/water cooled turbo. Generally most guys racing run the bearing out of the turbo from high speed and high load long before heat will ever kill it. You must still cool an oil cooled turbo the same as a oil/water cooled turbo, the procedure is no different. Most turbo manufacturers (Turbonetics / Precision / Garrett) recommend only 30 seconds of cool time after a hard drive. I personally have put over 75,000km (50,000 miles) on my last oil only turbo (on a Turbo VW) and it was no different in shape then my T25 that came off my current car with 50,000 miles on it.


http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/show...ock+waterlines

So can you really just loop the turbo waterlines together for a V Trim install or?

TIA...

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

Yes, you can just loop them, don't try to plug them with a rubber cap, that won't last long. Most guys out there running bigger turbos that are not 16Gs or 20Gs, don't run water cooling. Cool down time for a turbo is only needed after you just ran it hard. If you were just driving like normal, none is needed.

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

Well I just chickened out and changed my Turbo order to the Evo3 with the big flapper. I just can't see paying all the $ to install the ARP's and HG in this 7 bolt motor, as needed for the 60 trim.

Even between this Evo3 turbo and the new FMIC, you'd think I still should see some descent gains?

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

Why are ARPs and a headgasket required for a 60 trim? Detonation is what kills headgaskets and lifts the head, not the size of your turbo.

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

That's the info that "slowbubblecar" posted to this thread? I'm no expert, but pushing more air and boost = loosing headgaskets makes sense to me?

Overall in my case, with this car, right now, I think that I'm better off backing off from the 60 trim, and settleing for the Evo3 and the FMIC upgrades.

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

So your saying someone could run 30+ psi on stock headbolts and be ok as long as its on a good tune? I agree with the headgasket not having to be anything more than a stock Mitsu since its just like a fuse in my opinion. But not having headbolts? Don't know about that one.

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

Headgaskets get blown by detonation and high boost pressure. a 60-trim will be fine on your stock motor, just do not run more than ~25 lbs of boost. Past that, the stock head studs are not strong enough and the head will start lifting away from the block. Add in the higher likelyhood of detonation at those high boost levels and you got yourself a wicked detonation. Go for a scm61 or something, and tune it for like 19-21 psi and you'll have yourself a pump gas monster.

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

My car blew coolant past the HG on 25 psi pump with a 60 trim. The car was not running too lean either. It had 1.83 counts of knock on that run and seemd to run fine except the big cloud of white smoke pouring out the back. My friends car behind me and my car were both misted with coolant. The HG was a new stocker copper sprayed and was torqued down to 95 with a snap on torque wrench. The head bolts were new arps. The car had about 20 miles on it and 2 highway pulls.

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

Guess for me I'd rather be a bit safer than alot sorrier right now.

You'd think this Evo3 with a Evo3 O2 Housing, big flapper and new front mount should net me ~50 to 75 more HP than my old failing Big 16 and stock side mount, right?

Also there seems to be outright disagreement on this board right now, on both headgasket/headbolt standards in relation to turbo size and boost, thus I can't really feel very confident on depending on either of the answers as being true or false in my case.

Besides, I admit I'm still a n00b, and I rather learn some more before going too big and and end up just wrecking my motor.

<cough remember "brokenblackknocking50trim"? cough>

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

I don't think 50-75 hp is easily gainable unless the car was just so far out of tune before. The evo3 isn't that much bigger than the old one and I don't think they will get you that much more hp.

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

Howie, if you want to do it right, listen to the rest of us who say you should replace the HG on a larger setup. I think an evo 16g is too small to attain you goals of +50hp. It is not much larger than a big 16g. Alpine got ~319hp to the wheels last year on his with a FMIC and dyno tuning on race gas. I wouldn't expect that out of your car as it is an auto. You would have to be the second person who made 400hp on an evo 16g to get ~320 to the wheels. There are quite a bit of possabilites of turbos between the 16g and 60 trim... I would chose a PTE 50 trim or a 20g. I think they will make you happy. I

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

Looks to me here like a new Evo3 would walk all over a sick big16?

http://www.slowboyracing.com/evo16g.htm

And I suppose the big front mount vs a stock SMIC is worth no gains?

Guess I need a 60 trim and to blow a HG to get anywhere then?

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

Read my post...

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

An evo 16g flows ~2lbs per minute more than a b16g. That is a diff of about ~20hp. Here is a bit more info about the turbos:

http://www.dsmstyle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1229

The thread you pointed to made no claim of a signifigant diff in HP potential. In a car with a s16g and a evo 16g, I would bet on the driver. I do not see a big difference between any of the 16g turbos to justify calling it a worthwile upgrade for you.

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

The Evo3 vs 50 Trim battle wages on....

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/show...highlight=evo3

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

According to this same thread, it looks like 4 lbs more per minute on the Evo3, is 40 + 25 for the new FMIC install = 65 HP gain!

What's wrong with a 65 HP gain, with a minimal risk to your motor to boot?

slowbubblecar

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

14B 33lbs/min
16G 36lbs/min
B16G 38lbs/min
Evo16G 42lbs/min

Stole this info from mustgofaster. Mike (vicious) stated that 1lbs/min is about equal to 10 hp so a 14b should go up to 330 hp while an EVO16g should go up to 420 hp. Not sure about the s16g though. I would guess 350 because CVD got 319 fwhp. Add in the drivetrain loss and CVD made around 375 crank Hp.
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With a FMIC you could make another 20 to 30 horses I would think.

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

EDITED

Somehow posted with less writing

Re: Bastard 20G?
 

How did this get posted?


I guess I personally don't think it would be a worth wild upgrade. If I were to upgrade, I would go bigger. My GST came with a $800 FP big 16g on it and one of the first things I did to it was upgrade the turbo.
On my car with the blown HG, I am guessing the 6 bolt head might have been warped that was put on the 6 bolt since it wasn't tuned bad and it happened right away. I haven't pulled it off or done anything yet though. I guess I just cant get a good head for this thing if that is the case. It would be the 4th bad one swapped on the car and the 5th swapped in the 6 months I had the stupid car.