Knock in 1st gear

[xveganxcowboyx]

Around the time my 14B ws dying I noticed heavy knock in first gear and continually lessening knock as the gears got higher (43-1, 20-2, 8-3, 0-4&5 or similar). I replaced the turbo with a B16G and got a 2G manifold. For the most part things got better. For some reason I'm still seeing knock in first gear. Anytime I even come close to boosting I can feel the timing being pulled. I haven't been running it hard in that gear, but even in partial boost/partial throttle I'm seeing 20-something counts of knock. I get little to no knock in other gears.




*edit* It may be related to a problem I've been having where the O2 sensor reads 0.03 or 0.05 sometimes at idle, but seems to cycle fine otherwise. I changed O2 sensors with the turbo (one came with the new one). I had the same O2 sensor issue before and after the change.

[xveganxcowboyx]

Awww, come on guys. I need a little help here. Pretty please.

[Kracka]

O2 sensor is not related to knock counts.

Have you had your car tuned? That would be a good place to start.

[xveganxcowboyx]

Completely lacking in tuning hardware right now. Just bought an evo 8 fuel pump and injectors. Will be looking for an AFC right away. Until then....

I don't think this has anything to do with tuning though. It just started recently without any major changes. I mention the O2, because it does it at partial throttle as well, when the O2 actually means something to the ecu.

Unless I'm running rediculously lean I think it's a false reading, because it starts at anything above 0psi or even slightly in vacuum.


It's also worth mentioning that my mileage dropped about 5-6mpg around the same time, but I think that's just due to pulled timing.

[94talonawd]

It would help if you tell us what has been done to your car.

Have you tried diagnosting it yourself first? What all did you check already?

[94talonawd]

So you have Evo 8 fuel pump and injectors in your car and nothing to tune with, correct??

Tsk tsk tsk..

[94talonawd]

Oh yes, and it seems to me that this is a new car?

[JET]

If the last post is correct, then you are quite rich, which would lead to the knock in the lower gears. You can knock from being too rich, which would be the case with bigger injectors and no tune.

[niterydr]

What are the mods on the car?
Rich "knock" and lean "knock" can both occur. One is more of a cylinder miss-fire the other can be detonation. Both are very bad for power and longevity of the motor.
"knock" per gear could also be a load change or possible drivetrain noise.

[xveganxcowboyx]

No, I have ordered the evo 8 fuel pump and injectors. The fuel pump will be going in as soon as I get it, but the injectors will wait until I get some fuel control.

The car is a 91 TSI AWD. Big 16g, 2g manifold, 3" exhaust, boost controller set at 14psi, rewired stock fuel pump, egr and vacuum lines removed and capped, FMIC (a few small leaks, but nothing major). I can't remember everything right now that's going on in the engine bay. No major changes. Compression is low, but stable (110 to 120) which allowed me to run 17-18 psi on my 14b with no knock whatsoever.

I have tried to figure it out on my own, but have come up short. When it was knocking through the lower gears (most in first, but lots through third) I thought it was my dying 14b causing it. The knock was reduced when I changed the turbo, but I'm still having problems. The problem is it started without any major changes being done by me and I can't think of what would cause this condition.

So to reiterate the symptoms: Knock starts at any boost in first gear at both partial and wide open throttle. Rises to mid twenties at least which causes timing to be pulled heavily (car feels very doggy). I may be getting a little knock in second as well. Third on up runs smoothly with no knock until I start running out of fuel.

[94talonawd]

Originally Posted by xveganxcowboyx

No, I have ordered the evo 8 fuel pump and injectors. The fuel pump will be going in as soon as I get it, but the injectors will wait until I get some fuel control.

The car is a 91 TSI AWD. Big 16g, 2g manifold, 3" exhaust, boost controller set at 14psi, rewired stock fuel pump, egr and vacuum lines removed and capped, FMIC (a few small leaks, but nothing major). I can't remember everything right now that's going on in the engine bay. No major changes. Compression is low, but stable (110 to 120) which allowed me to run 17-18 psi on my 14b with no knock whatsoever.

I have tried to figure it out on my own, but have come up short. When it was knocking through the lower gears (most in first, but lots through third) I thought it was my dying 14b causing it. The knock was reduced when I changed the turbo, but I'm still having problems. The problem is it started without any major changes being done by me and I can't think of what would cause this condition.

So to reiterate the symptoms: Knock starts at any boost in first gear at both partial and wide open throttle. Rises to mid twenties at least which causes timing to be pulled heavily (car feels very doggy). I may be getting a little knock in second as well. Third on up runs smoothly with no knock until I start running out of fuel.

Your compression should be right around 160. Id look more into that.

Also I would fix any of the boost leaks, you would be amazed at how much air is escaping when your doing 18 psi. Also, if you are still on your 1g mas, you might be over running it too, since you are leaking boost too. Or your 1g mas might just be faulty.

What are your injector duty cycle at in 3rd?

Also, your fuel pump could be dying out too. So I would consider replacing that, if it hasnt been already. It is a 10+ year old car.

Have you checked your base timing? If your knock count is going up that high the timing may have been advanced. If you haven't, check it and make sure it is back to factory specs.

[Shane@DBPerformance]

Is the Evo 8 fuel pump extremely cheap or something? That is one of the first things we swap on the Evos. Going to a Walbro 255HP on the Evo makes a world of difference in tuning those cars. With a couple bolt-ons you can into problems getting eough fuel under boost with the stock pump.

[xveganxcowboyx]

I plan to rebuild it. I was going to do it around Christmas, but since it's been stable since I've owned the car (well over a year) I've decided to wait until spring.

I was leaking at a couple welds on my piping. I ground them down and fixed most of them. I still need to pressure test for the rest, but it's much better than it was. The problem started long after the install of my FMIC so I know the pipes arent the cause. (Though for good measure I will check all of my couplers)

The MAS issue is a good one. I shouldn't be over running it, because I'm not boosting much, but it may be bad. I hadn't thought of that, but I had similar issues when one went bad on me a while back. Good time to find a 2G MAS.

When I last checked my injector duty cycle the spring in my boost controller was too stiff and I was boosting 15-16psi. I was getting 110% by 6,500rpm. I have since replaced the spring and am running more conservative boost. At 17lbs on my 14B I was hitting 100% around 7,000rpm.

Fuel pump will hopefully be replaced within a week with an EVO unit so that should cure any fuel pump issues.

Checked base timing 5 or 6 months ago. It was a couple degrees off. I set it. Haven't checked it since. I'll grab my timing gun next time I get to my folks place.

[xveganxcowboyx]

Originally Posted by ecoli

Is the Evo 8 fuel pump extremely cheap or something? That is one of the first things we swap on the Evos. Going to a Walbro 255HP on the Evo makes a world of difference in tuning those cars. With a couple bolt-ons you can into problems getting eough fuel under boost with the stock pump.

Yes, it's very cheap. I paid $30 shipped for a low mileage one. They flow about the same as a Walbro 190, but are supposed to be much quieter and better quality. I was going to go 190, but I've heard good things about the evo pumps and will run it at least until I can afford a good FPR and 255.

[Kracka]

If the EVO pump truely flows the same as a Walbro 190 then its a good match to your current setup.

[94talonawd]

Originally Posted by xveganxcowboyx

I plan to rebuild it. I was going to do it around Christmas, but since it's been stable since I've owned the car (well over a year) I've decided to wait until spring.

I was leaking at a couple welds on my piping. I ground them down and fixed most of them. I still need to pressure test for the rest, but it's much better than it was. The problem started long after the install of my FMIC so I know the pipes arent the cause. (Though for good measure I will check all of my couplers)

The MAS issue is a good one. I shouldn't be over running it, because I'm not boosting much, but it may be bad. I hadn't thought of that, but I had similar issues when one went bad on me a while back. Good time to find a 2G MAS.

When I last checked my injector duty cycle the spring in my boost controller was too stiff and I was boosting 15-16psi. I was getting 110% by 6,500rpm. I have since replaced the spring and am running more conservative boost. At 17lbs on my 14B I was hitting 100% around 7,000rpm.

Fuel pump will hopefully be replaced within a week with an EVO unit so that should cure any fuel pump issues.

Checked base timing 5 or 6 months ago. It was a couple degrees off. I set it. Haven't checked it since. I'll grab my timing gun next time I get to my folks place.

Definitly get a 2g mas. You may not be boosting much, but when the mas draws in air, some of it is going to leak through boost leaks, then the mas is going to draw in more air again to replace the boost that is leaking. Which ends up in your mas over running. This also makes you run richer too, because the mas is counting air that isnt getting sucked in by the engine, but rather being dispersed into the atmosphere via boost leaks, and your ECU doesnt know that, so its reading more air, which means its going to send more fuel. This also then raises the injector d/c to a higher point than it should be, and causes the fuel pump to not be able to support this much amount of fuel that is needed. So all of this is going to account for your car to go FDRTHRTHAEFGARHGFDVXVBAR!!!

So...

FDRTHRTHAEFGARHGFDVXVBAR!!! = Knock

Well, atleast thats what I came up with, lol.

[xveganxcowboyx]

I don't believe the MAS is being over run. The problem started before the turbo upgrade and after the FMIC install. But if the sensor is going faulty it may be having the same effect. I thought the IDC's were high and it would explain the loss of mileage.

Do you think that a 2G MAS and EVO injectors (supposedly act like 580-590cc) would be too rich to run for a couple weeks until I get an AFC? Or am I better driving it as is until I have the whole package?

[94talonawd]

Originally Posted by xveganxcowboyx

I don't believe the MAS is being over run. The problem started before the turbo upgrade and after the FMIC install. But if the sensor is going faulty it may be having the same effect. I thought the IDC's were high and it would explain the loss of mileage.

Do you think that a 2G MAS and EVO injectors (supposedly act like 580-590cc) would be too rich to run for a couple weeks until I get an AFC? Or am I better driving it as is until I have the whole package?

Hmm.. If the IDC is higher than it should be then you are running rich from leaks. Boost leaks = bad gas mileage. Since you are using more fuel than you need.

Umm I would wait until you get an AFC to tune with before putting in the injectors. But the 2gmas should be fine with the stocker 450's?

I ran my car once with 450's and a 2g mas with no AFC for a month and didnt notice anything different. But thats just me, dont do what I did. Unless someone else on the board thinks it'll be fine

[Kracka]

The 2G MAS is not a good match for the stock 450cc injectors on a 1G. If you are going to run a 2G MAS untuned on a 1G then get 550cc injectors (or something close such as those EVO injectors).

Although harsh, here is the best advice you'll be given all day: Cut the bullshit and trying to be a cheap-ass and mod your car right. If you can't afford to do it right then don't do it at all; you'll only end up costing yourself more in the end and run the risk of destroying your car in the meantime.

[xveganxcowboyx]

Originally Posted by S2kracka

The 2G MAS is not a good match for the stock 450cc injectors on a 1G. If you are going to run a 2G MAS untuned on a 1G then get 550cc injectors (or something close such as those EVO injectors).

Although harsh, here is the best advice you'll be given all day: Cut the bullshit and trying to be a cheap-ass and mod your car right. If you can't afford to do it right then don't do it at all; you'll only end up costing yourself more in the end and run the risk of destroying your car in the meantime.

What am I doing cheapely or hurting my car with? I try to do everything as safely and completely as can be. Are you talking about having to wait until my next paycheck to buy an AFC? Honestly, I've gone hungry to make sure my car is running well so I don't know what you're talking about.