Finally getting stuff done on our cars - Page 11

carltalon · 04-20-2006

I feel sick after reading that. I guess you found the limit for the stock rods. I was kind of wondering why you where using the stockers. On a Plus side 526 on pump gas is awsome.

AJ · 04-20-2006

man that sucks! Sorry Swanny, I know how hard and how many late nights the whole crew put into that beast. I am sure you guys will get it up and running in due time, when it's all ready for the next step. Keep you head up, it's only a car.

Kevin 1G Drummer · 04-20-2006

shit man.... that sucks alot! sorry to hear about that...

TheBlizzard · 04-20-2006

I just have one question for you Swanny. Were you just trying to see how far you could push the stock rods? Because I can't think of anything other reason that you would leave them in considering the turbos you choose and the power you wanted to make. Just doesn't make sense.

Other than a bearing going I would have to assume it was detonating on pump gas on high boost. I know you said the A/F were good but you could have just been pushing the boost on that gas too much, or running too much timing.

Oh well I guess you will just have to diagnose it when you take it apart. Speculating is just that, speculation. Either way it sucks.

FattyBoomBatty · 04-20-2006

Of course he was checking the limits. I done heard it from the horse's mouth.

I just wish i could have gotten a ride first!!

good ruck!

TheBlizzard · 04-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by niterydr

For those that care:

Cylinder #3 doesn't like me anymore. Last night we made 519awhp at 22psi, very safe tune. Then we decided to turn it up a bit. It made 526 at 24-25psi...the car seemed to just go "flat" after spool-up. Safe a/f ratios, no knock, low timing (16 degrees advance), a very safe and monitered tune, almost like you'd see with doctors watching someone in the ICU wing of a hosptial.

16 degrees of timing advance on pump gas and 24-25lbs of boost is nowhere near "low timing" unless you are running a really low compression ratio (in the 7.5:1 range). Don't you guys think timing should have been set in the single digits when running that much boost on pump gas? I could see maybe 11-12 degress but 16 degrees just seems pretty aggressive to me for not using C16 at that boost level.

SlowWhite · 04-20-2006

I've been running 15 degree's of timing with 26psi on 93oct for probably 8 months... at least 50 pass's down the 1/4 before switching to race gas. (only 4 runs then blew the tranny on a really bad wheel hop launch...lowered it 1000rpms due to really bad wheel spin didn't notice I was the 3rd car in line after they reprepped the track)

TheBlizzard · 04-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowWhite

I've been running 15 degree's of timing with 26psi on 93oct for probably 8 months... at least 50 pass's down the 1/4 before switching to race gas. (only 4 runs then blew the tranny on a really bad wheel hop launch...lowered it 1000rpms due to really bad wheel spin didn't notice I was the 3rd car in line after they reprepped the track)

Thats great. But would you consider that "low timing"? I would consider 15 degrees at 26psi pretty aggressive. If he is running low compression then it could be considered "low".

SlowWhite · 04-20-2006

Actually 15 is on the high side for me. I rarely get more then 16 at it's highest so ya 15 would be on the high side.

Anyrate hope you get things back together soon.

Shotgun! · 04-20-2006

Before I left, before the injector O-ring thing:
Shrep thought he heard a miss-fire or some such on decel and idle. I didn't hear it, but it would mean that it's not your "power pull" that should be blamed. The pump tuning aside, that is nowhere near enough power to break things.

turbotalon1g · 04-20-2006

sorry to heaR this guys, a lot of people were gunning for you all, and were definitely ready to see you run around the area this year. Good luck with the reconstruction and now just go for broke, you couldn't do highest with stock internals, maybe just highest in the US?
Either way good luck to you all and can't wait to see the new one.

Super Bleeder!! · 04-20-2006

that blows goats! (not of the steve hill variety)

niterydr · 04-20-2006

A few things to clear up.
We went with the stockers because we thought they would hold alot more power than they did. We did want to push the stockers to the limits, but we honestly figured the limits to be 750whp on our dyno. All signs point to no detonation, but inspection of the torn down motor will be done with results posted.
I don't consider 16psi "low" but I know many 3s people are running stupid amounts of timing with redicilously high intake temps, with lean air/fuel ratios, and are doing fine. My air fuels were in the 10's, the timing was 16 degrees, the knock sensor wasn't picking up anything (less than 1 volt) and the plugs were clean. Short of having a seat inside of the cylinder, watching the flame front, there was nothing else we could moniter. My motor ran cold (185 on the street, up to 207 on the dyno after 12 or so back to back pulls) and had great oil pressure.
The "missing" justin kept hearing is the fuel cut on decel. It is very loud on my car because of the 4" exhaust. I am having the injectors shut off on decel (just like any car) just makes a bunch of "paw paw paw" noises...kind of like the srt4's.
I guess we'll see what it looks like when it comes apart, but it really doesn't matter in the end. To me we have found what I consider the "limit" on that rod. I don't know the history on the rods in my motor (sourced them from many different motors) and we tried to treat the all the same.
All the rods have arp rod bolts, and brass bushing for the wrist pins. The rotating assembly has been perfectly balanced, and has been cryo treated.
The car will live again, with a forged crank and forged rods. I am done prototyping parts for people. If someone wants to know how much it'll hold, go figure it out on your own budget. The feedback I get from communities is great. It'll get a forged crank, pauter rods, 30+psi, and race gas next time it runs.
Then, hopefully, I'll be throwing up 700+awhp dyno graphs.

turbotalon1g · 04-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by niterydr

It'll get a forged crank, pauter rods, 30+psi, and race gas next time it runs.
Then, hopefully, I'll be throwing up 700+awhp dyno graphs.

Pimpin'

EclipseGST · 04-21-2006

Sorry to hear that Josh! Makes me think my turbo problem is nothing, I got off lucky I guess! Cant wait to see the final project...

tim · 04-21-2006

I was hoping I would never have to read that post but I guess some things are too good to be true.

Get the forged components in and show us some fireworks. I look forward to seeing this thing out and about. It is too bad the glory didnt last a little longer.

Tim

Pushit2.0 · 04-21-2006

I think we found the limit on stock rods. With no signs of detonation and a solid A/F and intake temp there is not a hole lot more we could do. The motor will be torn down and inspected as said above. Detonation ither blows the headgasket or channels the head, or spins rod bearings which results in a lose of oil pressure and a hole lot of noise.

~John

TheBlizzard · 04-21-2006

How do you know 100% it wasn't knocking? Just from looking at the AEM? You can't soley go off that especially if you didn't put race gas in it and calibrate the noise tables in the AEM. Or did you put race gas in it and run low low timing and low low boost to make sure it was not knocking and then zero out the noise tables in the AEM? Or is the 3S totally different when it comes to monitoring knock? How is their knock sensors compared to a 2G DSM?

Running pump gas first thing is a big gamble in my opinion. Especially on a pretty radical car boosted like you were building. The pump gas numbers are awesome but I have a feeling it was detonating and killed the rod bearing in #3. The proof is in the pudding though when you pull it apart.

Pushit2.0 · 04-21-2006

We did look at and set the knock table when it was running 15psi with a very safe tune. The knock sensor is the same as a 2g. We do not think it was knocking due to the plugs not showing any signs of detonation, the knock noise table did pretty much the same thing the hole time it was on the dyno, the A/F were on the rich side to keep the motor cool, and the intake temps were around 100deg, not bad for a sidemount car on the dyno and the car pulled smooth and the power curve is smooth as well. As said befor, we wanted to test the limit of a stock rods, we did and now the rods will be upgraded.

~John

**Goat Blower** · 04-21-2006

Sorry to hear that guys. Nothing sucks more than putting your heart, soul and wallet into a big project, and to have a problem with it. Some of us have been there, it sucks.

-Speculation hat on-
I don't think it's a normal rod issue. I can't say for sure since I don't know 3S motors, but DSM rods have been proven to easily handle 125whp per hole with careful tuning. I can't imagine Mitsu went way cheaper on the rods in the 3s', so just by those numbers, 750whp shouldn't be out of the question for stock rods. Did you have the rods magnafluxed? I'm thinking there might have been an imperfection in that one rod. I guess only disassembly will tell.
-speculation hat off-