1650cc injector and pump/e85 question - Page 2

**asshanson** · 01-25-2009

I recently traded my old 1600s out for the new bluemax 1350s. Cold startup is about the same but not too bad if it's above zero outside. If you're just going to use a single pump the 1350s will outflow one which is why I downgraded, the part throttle hesitation on the 1600s got annoying (even with e85, can't imagine how much worse it would be on pump).

There is no way I'd run these on pump gas for a daily driver though.

sleepydsm · 01-25-2009

we'll see how it works this spring!

Archertsi · 01-25-2009

I currentley have 1600's for e85, Idles at about 1000 rpms, But here and there at idle, the afrs go a little crazy and the car revs up and down a bit. No boost leaks, correct fuel pressure, etc, yadda yadda yadda. They actually run great on the freeway, no cutting out or bogging after I got my trims dialed in.

But, this spring i may upgrade to the bluemax 1650's so I can hopefully lower the idle and get it to idle smoother. I also see they have 1850's, and i thought 1650's were over board.

I really doubt either injector could run regular pump, but then again, nobody will know until someone trys it.

**asshanson** · 01-25-2009

I remember a guy on link trying them out before he switched to e85 and he said he felt like he was pulling a huge trailer on the freeway, constant hesitation/bucking because the AFRs would go 13:1 then 18:1 and back.

Andrew7dg · 01-26-2009

If you have an ajustable FPR just lower the base pressure a bit (instead of 43psi which is stock I believe). They should just work out fine for you on E85.

sleepydsm · 01-26-2009

I am not concerned how they will work with E85.

I was/am concerned how they will work if I use pump gas. I was planning on just getting a rough tune with pump while I learn a lot about tuning and DSMLink. Then I was gonna switch over to E85 when I was more comfortable with it. Or I could just fill it up with e85 and bring it to the dyno. But I wanna try tuning it myself.

Archertsi · 01-26-2009

I think you will find that it may be easier to tune the e85 over 91 pump. 1600's are MUCH friendlier with E85 than with 91. I set my global and dead time according to some threads I read on the link forums, installed the 1600's, filled up with E85 and she fired up, idled and ran decent with a little bit of back firing. Did some adjusting to correct the trims and the car ran great.

Pump, IMO, is gunna require more tuning before the car will even really be driveable. So if you have allot to learn about link still, I would reccomend starting your tuning with E85. Plus E85 doesnt detonate as quickley as 91 pump, so it gives you a safer fuel to learn how to tune with.

4g63tcrazy · 01-26-2009

^^Very very true. I would start off with E85 just for the safety factor.

sleepydsm · 01-26-2009

Ok, sounds like a plan. I've got over half a tank of premium, should i just drain the shit, and bring some e85 over once the car is in running condition?

4g63tcrazy · 01-26-2009

Thats what I did once I converted over. Save the gas for a lawn mower or something haha.

sleepydsm · 01-26-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4g63tcrazy

Thats what I did once I converted over. Save the gas for a lawn mower or something haha.

My stock civic! vroooooooooooooooooooooooom bitch, PREMIUM!

jrohner · 01-26-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by C3L1CA

You think you can make 1000hp with 4 1600's and e85? haha

I personally don't think 1600s are too crazy with e85. Looking at past logs I have been in the very high 70's to low 80's% with injector duty cycle flowing around the 60lb/min'ish with my turbo. I think my car idles pretty damn good on e85 and I like the fact if I ever upgraded a little bit my injectors could handle it. Hell if I wanted something that was idled perfectly, was good on gas mileage, comfy, easy to drive I'd just go get a nice buick.

Maybe not, but definitely 900allwheel-dynojet-hp / over 1000bhp, comparing my injectors to the 1650's using an injector calculator from RC. I'm flowing almost 40lbs/min of airflow and running 750cc injectors putting down 414hp/459torque with my 16G. Those 1600's are more that double the injector I'm running. I know my injectors aren't ever maxed; even in the snowy freezing winter I have enough injector to richen my tune up considerably from what I actually run (yes I've tried it just to see). How rich are you wanting to run anyways? Maybe all the fuel isn't getting up to your injectors?

Archertsi · 01-26-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepydsm

Ok, sounds like a plan. I've got over half a tank of premium, should i just drain the shit, and bring some e85 over once the car is in running condition?

Yes, drain it, DO NOT mix it with 91. I didnt drain it, and the trims fluctuated for a few tanks and I think it was because pump/110 was still mixed in there. I could smell the 110 for a long time. So, yes, drain it so it is pure.

Also, remember there is E70 and E85 depending on the time of year, if you dont already know. Each will require some changes in your tune so pay attention each time you fill up.

blackrosenova400 · 01-27-2009

No way 1600's would be good enough for 900 wheel hp. I was at 68% duty cycle with 1350's at 38 base fuel pressure, making 380 on Map's dyno (e85). Maybe if you ramped up fuel pressure but I would still highly doubt it.

**Halon** · 01-27-2009

I installed my 1600's when I was on 91. Dialed them in best I could. Ran the car until she was damn near running on fumes, then filled it to the top with E85. Re-dialed it in and it ran way better on E85.

jrohner · 01-27-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackrosenova400

No way 1600's would be good enough for 900 wheel hp. I was at 68% duty cycle with 1350's at 38 base fuel pressure, making 380 on Map's dyno (e85). Maybe if you ramped up fuel pressure but I would still highly doubt it.

My cousin is at 321hp with 680's on E85; look where I'm at with 750s. There's also a guy on tuners with like 440 with 750's. Your 1350's at 38psi are actually like 1260's. Also, there's a big difference between 68% (856cc) and 80%(1008cc) duty cycle, but how much fuel you are using depends on your tune not just your hp (and if the fuel is actually getting to the injectors). Most people I've seen on tuners seem to run E85 really rich - like 11:1 gas afr, which is actually 7.3:1. I can hear my car misfiring if I go even close to that crazy rich and I know I loose power as I go richer (even before misfiring). How I drive, if my tune wasn't safe my engine would be gone -- I could never be as hard on my engine on a drag strip as I am on the road.

I pretty much consider the duty cycle a theoretical number; some people have claimed at times to see higher than 100% duty cycle with no issues-- is that actually possible - NO.

Swifty1638 · 01-27-2009

again, i gotta say it.but you will max out your pump before you max out 1600's. pump setups man, pump setups.

I'm getting my old 1600's from andrew back, and will run them, but i got dual 310lph pumps..

-A. Swift

**Kracka** · 01-27-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrohner

I pretty much consider the duty cycle a theoretical number; some people have claimed at times to see higher than 100% duty cycle with no issues-- is that actually possible - NO.

Yup; IDC definitely isn't exact with the stock ECU's. I saw a max of 119.5% with my stock injectors and Scheides saw almost 130%.

jrohner · 01-27-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kracka

Yup; IDC definitely isn't exact with the stock ECU's. I saw a max of 119.5% with my stock injectors and Scheides saw almost 130%.

Anyone know why, is there just something wrong with the formula used to calculate it? I would never go by IDC alone, I say richen it up some and if your AFR's still match up you're good.

**Kracka** · 01-27-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrohner

Anyone know why, is there just something wrong with the formula used to calculate it?

I'm guessing that must be it; or maybe 100% IDC as logged by the ECU is what they feel the ideal maximum to be? It seems like anywhere above ~115% and fueling issues begin to occur.