Valve spring work-around.

[iceminion]

Lets say you have a complete longblock 4G63 with a new stock head gasket.

Now lets say you want to upgrade the springs.

Ideally you would have taken care of this before you coppercoated the headgasket and torqued it down.

I have been brainstorming this one and rather then taking it apart and being forced to buy a new $40 head gasket + cleaning of block/head.

All that is needed is to have force put on the bottom of the valve, one recommendation is to get a spark plug adapter and hook it up to an air compressor, pressurize the cylinder = force on the bottom of the valve.

unfortunately, in practice, this does not work, when you use your custom valve spring removal tool, and you push down on the spring, the retainer/keepers are stuck together and all you succeed in doing is opening the valve allowing the pressurized air to excape.

practicing on another head, it seems like you need a quick 20-30 LBS of force to break the bond between keeper/retainer.

so I have been thinking about things you can put INSIDE the cylinder (other then AIR) that can resist compression.

First thing that comes to mind is OIL/Trans fluid. You could put the piston at BDC fill the cylinder with the fluid, put the spark plug in, and have a friend crank the crank to provide the pressure needed to break the keeper/retainer. It would leak, but alot slower then air, and this would give you more time to work and possibly a better result.

My other idea, which would be less messy (but more dangerous) is fill the cylinder with Airsoft ammunition, and turn the crank so the piston is providing positive pressure on the plastic BB's so you can press down on the valves all day long.

you could remove the airsoft ammunition pretty easily, take the spark plug out, let em drain out upside down, maybe blast a little compressed air in through the spark plug hole.

And if you were to miss one round, it would just bounce around/melt as you the car warmed up.

Any thoughts/insight?

[Halon]

People have put string inside the cylinder before. Soft enough that it wont damage anything, and easy to remove, as long as you leave a little end on it hanging out the spark plug so you can just pull it out

[95talonracer]

Originally Posted by Halon

People have put string inside the cylinder before. Soft enough that it wont damage anything, and easy to remove, as long as you leave a little end on it hanging out the spark plug so you can just pull it out

I have done this many times and works great. I also use a socket and give it a quick hit and the retainers will come out.

[Super Bleeder!!]

Yup, string or rope is what i have also seen used.

[Febo]

Been there done it. A good, non fiber rope is the best, you just fill cylinders 1 and 4, and 2 and 3 at a time and you can do two cylinders at once , I also have a home made tool that works pretty decently.

[Goat Blower]

With all that f'ing around, it's easier to just take the head off and do it right. Stock headgaskets are cheap.

[Febo]

I say no to that.

[aaronspeed]

Just bring the piston on the cylinder your going to change to the top and compress the spring. Remember this is an interference engine and the valve will hit the piston and just remove the keepers. Fast and Easy. Been doing it this way for 20 years on 4 cylinders that have no valve to piston clearance

[Pushit2.0]

I would think the valve could bend doing it that way. Rope or use a leak down tester to pressurize the cylinder you are removing the springs from. Snap-on sells a tool that bolts to the cam caps to press down on the spring one at a time, I am sure some place would sell one for cheap. Block all the drain passages from the head to the block with something to avoid have a keeper find its way into the oil pan. Or pull the head, but that cost money a little time at this point.

~John

[iceminion]

ceeper or keeper?

anyways...would it matter if it did end up in the oil pan? it wouldnt get picked up by the oil uptake tube, it has a strong filter on it.......wouldnt it eventually just come out with the oil? or sadly reside on the bottom of the oil pan for all eternity?

I don't understand why everyone equates anything in your oil with a ruined motor....

[JET]

It is likely that the keeper would get stuck in one of the passages and block the oil flow at least partially. Also remember that the oil still has parts to go through before reaching the oil pan, the filter is the first thing after the pump. It won't get filtered until the next time around.

[iceminion]

Originally Posted by JET

It is likely that the keeper would get stuck in one of the passages and block the oil flow at least partially.

-Although I agree that dropping one of those things down the oil drain would not be ideal, i disagree, the oil returns are huge, you could drop a dime down there, a keeper would not get stuck

Originally Posted by JET

Also remember that the oil still has parts to go through before reaching the oil pan,

Uh, dont want to sound better then you or anything, but any free floating oil in the head drains straight down under 0PSI of pressure to the oil pan, after the oil is used in the cams/lifters it is done.

Originally Posted by JET

the filter is the first thing after the pump.

No, not exactly, from the oil pan, there is the pickup tube, which has a screen, keepers are huge in comparason to the screen, it would never make it into the oil pump

Originally Posted by JET

It won't get filtered until the next time around.

actually, oil gets filtered every time around


Jet - im not trying to be a dick here, you know how long I have been working on dsms, I have been battling against automotive superstition my whole automotive career, so facts are very important to me. sorry if I picked your whole post apart, but comon man!

[95talonracer]

Originally Posted by iceminion

actually, oil gets filtered every time around

Not all the oil gets filtered 100% of the time the motor is running.

[JET]

Originally Posted by iceminion

-Although I agree that dropping one of those things down the oil drain would not be ideal, i disagree, the oil returns are huge, you could drop a dime down there, a keeper would not get stuck

Have you actually looked down the oil passages? I have seen imperfections closing them 1/2 off before.

Uh, dont want to sound better then you or anything, but any free floating oil in the head drains straight down under 0PSI of pressure to the oil pan, after the oil is used in the cams/lifters it is done.

The post I was replying to was not specifically about the head, you said "I don't understand why everyone equates anything in your oil with a ruined motor...."

No, not exactly, from the oil pan, there is the pickup tube, which has a screen, keepers are huge in comparason to the screen, it would never make it into the oil pump


actually, oil gets filtered every time around

Not if the contamination happens after the filter, it will go through the engine once.

Jet - im not trying to be a dick here, you know how long I have been working on dsms, I have been battling against automotive superstition my whole automotive career, so facts are very important to me. sorry if I picked your whole post apart, but comon man!

Next time actually read what I write.

You have been going against conventional thinking, not superstition. Some good, some bad. I always tried to help you with your ideas if they have merit, even when others are bashing you.

[Pushit2.0]

There would be no way for the keeper to make its way into the oiling system unless there was no screen on the oil pickup tube. Also the oil filter does not filter all the time, if the pressure differential is to high it bypasses the filter, normally with cold oil or high RPM, which results in high oil pressure. MustGoFaster can chime in on this if he wants.
All you need is a rag to avoid any possible issues. Also here is a filter that does not bypass at all:
http://www.buickgn.com/oilfilters.htm

~John