TkrPerformance

[daneatsv8s]

Mark Schroeder aka TkrPerformance bought a 7-bolt block from my brother a few weeks back. The motor came RUNNING out of my 97 GSX, no knocking, no oil burning, no issues to speak of, I simply chose to swap it out for the newer 6-bolt from my Galant. Mark contacted Stephen a week or so later and told him that the block was "junk". Stephen told him to contact me in regards to a refund. Below is all of the correspondence between Mark and I in chronological order, which outlines my attempts to issue Mark a fair refund on his purchase:




From: mark schroeder [tkrperformance1@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 5:00 PM
To: Daniel Chang
Subject: junk 7bolt

I picked up the 7bolt from your 2g from your bro. as stated on style it was agood running engine. we it is junk. the engine has 1/4in of crank walk in it andthe bearings and crank are shot. So I was told to email you so you can get the 200.00 back to your bro so I can get it back to make it right. It is good for a part out and that is about it

mark
your can text me at 763 300 7429


At this point I was very disappointed with the trouble that Mark was having with my motor. As with every person that buys something from either myself or my brother, we try to make sure that they are happy. I immediately emailed Mark a response to try to solve the issue:


-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Chang
Sent: July 21, 2010 9:22 PM
To: mark schroeder <tkrperformance1@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: junk 7bolt

Mark,

Stephen is going to pick the block up from you and we will go from there. I'm going to have him take a look at it, and we will also bring it to a third party to have it looked at. If it is determined that everything you said is correct, then I will refund you the money. Stephen should be contacting you within the next few days to schedule a pick up time.

Dan

I emailed him and outline a process that would help both parties involved to be happy. I certainly don't want to be selling people junk parts, but at the same time, I felt as if I needed to have proof of the failures in the motor. I think this is the same process that any business would go through to process a return claim or warranty issue. If I go into Best Buy and say that the camera I bought from them a week ago is broken, they will be more than happy to refund me the money, provided that I can show them proof of the defect. I think the same thought process should take place in used parts sales as well.


From: mark [tkrperformance1@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 9:36 PM
To: Daniel Chang
Subject: RE: junk 7bolt

If leaves i need the cash for it back. I will not be out the 200. I have built
so many dsm so i do know what i am looking at nd tlking about. the engine is
done there is no rebuilding it at all. If you really want a 3rd party to look at
they can come at the same time to look at it. I am off tomorrow or fri so it has
to be in the next 2 days


Mark responds 14 minutes later to tell me that if I am going to pick up the block to have it inspected by a 3rd party, I am going to have to give him the money up front. If I was returning that same camera at Best Buy and I told the customer service counter that they had to give me the money BEFORE they inspected the camera for defects, what would they do? This is obviously not the proper process for getting a refund. So I responded to Mark to try to clarify what needed to be done:

From: Daniel Chang
Sent: July 21, 2010 9:46 PM
To: mark schroeder <tkrperformance1@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: junk 7bolt

Mark,

If I'm going to refund you for a junk motor that was pulled running out of my car, then I'm going to have to pick up the block and have it looked at. Since I'm not in the country and can't look at it personally, Stephen is going to bring it to Primo to have them look at it. I cannot refund you the money before I have it looked at, and unfortunately it is a little out of my place to request that someone from Primo go with Stephen to your house to look at the block. If you would like a refund then this is the process that we need to go through.

Dan

I informed Mark further WHY we needed to take this process, and told him why I could not refund him his money up front. I told him the name of the shop that I would bring it to as well. I left the email open-ended because I was waiting for a response from Mark.

When Mark responded previously to tell me that I needed to give him the money up front, he responded within 14 minutes. When I sent Mark an email about how he could get his refund, he didn't respond for SIX DAYS. After waiting for almost a week for a response, I sent Mark this email:



----- Original Message ----
From: Daniel Chang
To: mark <tkrperformance1@yahoo.com>
Sent: Mon, July 26, 2010 11:13:38 PM
Subject: RE: junk 7bolt

Well Mark I've given you the past 6 days to respond. When you first brought this issue to me I was more than happy to refund you the money, provided that you let me bring the block to a third party to be looked over. I am going to take your lack of a response as a refusal to go through with the process that I outlined, and I will not be refunding you any of your money. To say the least, it is extremely questionable to me why you insisted that I refund you the $200 before I took the block to be inspected, and now haven't responded since I insisted that this was the process we needed to take. I don't see how someone with
nothing to hide would have a problem with me taking the motor to a neutral third party to be inspected. I have been completely up front with you, like I am with every person that I do business with, and I have given you more than adequate chance to get your money back. At this point, I will not refund you the money for the motor, and I will not be doing any business with you whatsoever in the future.

Again, let's go back to the Best Buy example. IF I bring a camera to Best Buy to be returned, demand for a refund before the camera is inspected, and then just walk away from the process when my request for an immediate refund is denied, how is that going to look to Best Buy? Very very questionable if you ask me.


From: mark schroeder [tkrperformance1@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 10:31 AM
To: Daniel Chang
Subject: Re: junk 7bolt

Your brother never called or came over. I am done dealing with dumb ass scamers
like you and your brother from now one also you are a lieing sack of crap


After Mark read my email he proceeded to send me this delightful email about how I'm a scammer for not giving him his money back. He also seems to think that we had arranged a time for my brother to come over. Why would my brother have called him? I sent him an email that clearly showed I was waiting from a response from HIM. I don't quite see how it would make sense for my brother to randomly show up at his house when Mark had not given consent or arranged a time.

From: Daniel Chang
To: mark <tkrperformance1@yahoo.com>
Sent: Mon, July 27, 2010 12:30:38 PM
Subject: RE: junk 7bolt

Dumb ass scammers? Considering you bought a car from us not more than a few months ago? I was completely up front with you about what needed to be done for you to get a refund and you had NO response. You were very quick in responding to tell me that if I was going to take the block, I would need to give you the money up front, but when I told you that I would refund you AFTER someone neutral to the situation looked at it, you never said a word. You didn't respond and say have your brother call me, or I'm available to have to pick up the block at this time, NOTHING. So don't respond back trying to call ME a dumbass or a lying sack of crap. I didn't reject your claim of the motor being bad, if it was proven to be bad I would have happily refunded you the money. I've refunded people on several occasions when transactions didn't go the way they had hoped. Sorry for taking your lack of response as INCREDIBLY shady, on top of the fact that I sold you an engine that was RUNNING when I pulled it. I don't deal with people that are quick to demand money and then shy away when it comes to proving something. I also don't deal with people that say "trust me, I've rebuilt so many different motors before". I tried to handle this situation in a professional manner, and you clearly do not understand really what that means. So, like I said before, and I will say it again, I will not do business with you in any form from this point on, whether that is you charging my older brother $300 to install some cams and to hack his intercooler pipe beyond all recognition with an angle grinder, whether that is buying a mirage shell from us to build into another "evo", whether that is me driving to pick up a crusted ass timing belt plate that you decide to charge me $15 for, I will happily stay away from ANY dealings with you, and I'll be more than happy to tell people about my dealings with you.



I will not sit back and be called a scammer by someone who was either unwilling or incapable of following a standard procedure for getting a refund. It seems that I'm a "sack of crap" for not giving Mark his money back with no questions asked because quote "I have built so many dsm so i do know what i am looking at nd tlking about". I am completely indifferent as to who Mark is friends with on this board, based on my personal dealings with him, I will not do any further business with him. I think anyone that takes the time to look at this situation objectively can understand why I decided to reject his "I need the cash right now" attitude for a refund. I know this isn't the first incident that people have had with him, and I know for one thing I will not recommend him to any DSMer I know having work done on a vehicle, and most definitely not for selling or buying parts

[TheBlizzard]

In on page 1.

The thing I don't get is why wasn't some of this stuff inspected prior to the final sale? Or before selling the motor in the first place? Mark should have known better to inspect the motor before buying it, but you should have also known what you are actually selling before you took the money and "hoped" it would be ok.

Oh yeah and Mark is good friends with the owners and admin of this board so you are going to get flamed and shit on no matter what you do, so good luck with your rant.

[goodhart]

Originally Posted by TheBlizzard

The thing I don't get is why wasn't some of this stuff inspected prior to the final sale? Or before selling the motor in the first place? Mark should have known better to inspect the motor before buying it, but you should have also known what you are actually selling before you took the money and "hoped" it would be ok.

I personally saw this car run about a week before the engine was swapped. It ran like a top, why would anyone assume differently before selling for dirt cheap??

Originally Posted by TheBlizzard

Oh yeah and Mark is good friends with the owners and admin of this board so you are going to get flamed and shit on no matter what you do, so good luck with your rant.

Why does Mark being friends with Scheides and the crew make this any less legit? Shouldn't matter whether I am a Site Admin, the President of the United States or fuckin Jesus Christ our savior almighty, I should still have a chance to voice my opinion on someone I had a bad experience with without getting flamed out of existence for it.



Just for the record, I am totally neutral in this issue, just calling it like I see it

[Swifty1638]

Last I checked, parts sold by private parties are sold AS IS. we don't sign waivers, or offer warranties. Dan, going as far as he did only raises his crudentials in my book as a seller. He went above and beyond when it comes to this topic, and was not in the wrong.

Next time, look something over before you buy. Do you not test drive a car before purchasing? Look at a house before moving in? Get to know a girl before marrying her and knocking her up (tom, you went a lil backwards on this!)?

Knowing anyone on this site means nothing. Facts are facts.

[daneatsv8s]

As stated above, I didn't pull the motor apart to "inspect" it because it was running in my own personal daily driver when I pulled it. I didn't find it in a junkyard and part with it for cheap because I wasn't sure of its quality. I gave Mark the chance to get his money back, because it IS possible that the motor was crankwalked when I sold it to him. There are plenty of 6 and 7 bolts that are running around with some degree of crankwalk. As to the crank and bearings being "junk", I found it to be suspect since the car made absolutely NO knocking noises or anything of the sort. Even then, I didn't dismiss the possibility of the motor being bad, and told him that IF it was inspected by a NEUTRAL party and found to be bad, then I would issue him a refund immediately. Please tell me where I could have done anything differently? I in no way mean this as disrespect to Scheides, Kracka, or anything other "higher ups" that might be friends with Mark on a personal level. But that has no bearing on this sale. Just cause you have a few beers with someone occasionally doesn't mean that they are incapable of making a mistake.

[TheBlizzard]

Originally Posted by goodhart

Why does Mark being friends with Scheides and the crew make this any less legit? Shouldn't matter whether I am a Site Admin, the President of the United States or fuckin Jesus Christ our savior almighty, I should still have a chance to voice my opinion on someone I had a bad experience with without getting flamed out of existence for it.

You haven't been around since the beginning like I have, I am just speaking based on the history of this site thats all.

But your right it shouldn't matter. But in this case its not very cut and dry who is at fault, we only have one side of the story. And due to the nature of this situation, it is easily subjective and it won't be hard for people to defend Mark in this situation. Im not sayin, I just saying.

[TheBlizzard]

But for the record after re-reading the initial post it seems that you did try to rectify any issues with the motor, and I don't think it was out of line to request a third party motor inspection before a refund. Not sure why Mark wouldn't agree to that, unless he was not confident in his diagnosis? Who knows, but it sucks when things like this happens.

[Matt D.]

Mark is a very handy guy and knows his way around these cars. I have very little doubt that what he found is true, because no one is never wrong.

On the other hand, if the correspondence shown is all the communication that was made in its entirety, Mark bought a cheap engine and expected it to be a diamond in the rough. Calling someone a scammer over some miscommunication and misunderstanding is uncalled for.

daneatsv8s: If you don't think the engine is bad then why won't you just pay Mark back his money and pick up the engine?

Mark: You bought a cheap engine, buyer beware.

You both need to step back, stop throwing mud, and deal with the situation without being children.

[Kracka]

Originally Posted by Matt D.

daneatsv8s: If you don't think the engine is bad then why won't you just pay Mark back his money and pick up the engine?

I agree with this.

[A//// Guy]

Items like this are sold as is, period. It should have been thoroughly inspected before purchase to check for these types of issues. Especially since it was a 7 bolt.

I feel the seller did nothing wrong and even went out of his way in terms of communication to try and find a resolution.

[scheides]

A few points, all IMHO:
-used parts, as-is
-if the 7-bolt was in good running condition, there is zero reason to put a 6-bolt in....sounds fishy.
-you offered to pick it back up to get it inspected, basically admitting there could be a problem with it
-it's $200, not $1000 (i.e. not a huge sum of cash).

Either give mark the money back or tell him tough luck (hopefully he doesn't return the motor through your front window). Based on your FS ad though advertising it as running condition, I would recommend just returning the cash and taking the motor back. Sell it to someone else or fix it or whatever you want to do, but starting a bunch of drama over a $200 motor is pretty much at the top of my list of lame. Mark has been wrenching on these cars for years and years and I trust his word, but here's the thing--he told me about this last week before we all went out for Kracka's bday...he said about two sentances about it to me and that was it.

[niterydr]

While the engine swap for "Just cause" does sound fishy, I've seen people do more strange of things. The fact of the matter is that it is a $200 engine. That price is essentially a scrap value and if it is running it is a bonus. If the engine does run and start, it is as advertised.

Was there any sort of inspection done on the engine before it was purchased? A 1/4" of crankwalk/endplay is very noticable. Surely someone with as much experience as Mark would know to toss a prybar on the crank end pully or flywheel to check for freeplay before buying a 7 bolt. Hell, I don't understand why ANYONE would buy a used engine without getting a look at the bottom side (aka no oil pan) before purchase, especially if you know it is used and prone to issues historically.

Still $200 is not a lot of cheese, especially for a shortblock.

The best thing to do would be to have an independant part tear it down and post pictures up. Hell I've torn down and built more of these (4g63/4g64, 6g72) than I can count, if need be I can be a non charging neutral third party, but my schedule is very hectic and would probably not meet anyones timeline commitments.

[Kracka]

To add one more thing, since you brought up the Best Buy example, they would either issue a refund or refuse to issue a refund on the spot. I've never had any store ask to take the product back and inspect it first. I'm with Mark, no way in hell I'd give something back without a refund first.

As always though, I can't stress "BUYER BEWARE" enough with all the used parts changing hands.

[A//// Guy]

Originally Posted by niterydr

Was there any sort of inspection done on the engine before it was purchased? A 1/4" of crankwalk/endplay is very noticable. Surely someone with as much experience as Mark would know to toss a prybar on the crank end pully or flywheel to check for freeplay before buying a 7 bolt. Hell, I don't understand why ANYONE would buy a used engine without getting a look at the bottom side (aka no oil pan) before purchase, especially if you know it is used and prone to issues historically.

This.

If it ran for mark for even a couple days, then it was sold "running." No reason to say its false advertising on the sellers part.

[daneatsv8s]

I swapped the 6 bolt in because I had a change in plans regarding my DSMs. I had half of the parts I needed to finish my Galant the way I wanted it. The 6 bolt was freshly rebuilt, and already had a comp stage 4 clutch etc. Since I'm still in school I decided that instead of building a "fast" car that I had no purpose for, I would just make a good street set-up out of my GSX. I threw in a 16g and rather than buying a clutch that could handle the added power for a 7 bolt, I decided to put my 3,000 since rebuild 6 bolt motor in. As many people on this forum can tell you, the motor was in my daily car. I drive it day in, day out and it's been incredibly reliable for me, on top of the fact that I had done the t-belt, water pump, job less than 5,000 miles before. That is the only reason I was comfortable selling the motor as "running".

All your suggestions about taking the motor back and giving Mark the $200 make sense, which is why I told him that I was willing to do it in the FIRST place. That is the whole point of this thread. I didn't tell him to screw off or tell him he was wrong, I said I would refund him his money as soon as it was verified that the motor was bad. You all seem to know him so well, but the bottom line is I don't. I can't just take someone's word for it that the motor is "junk", crankwalked, and the bearings and crank are all shot too. In this case I am going to protect my interests and have it examined by a neutral third party. Anyone who either knows or has done business with my brother or I know how laughable it is to think that we would just take the motor and disappear. What would I do with a 7 bolt motor that I have no use or car for? That's why I sold it in the first place. I don't think that anyone who actually takes the time to OBJECTIVELY read what I wrote in the emails (rather than just skimming them and then posting at the bottom with your take on the matter) will agree that I could not have handled it in a more professional manner. The entire point of me telling Mark that I would not refund him is because there was NO response from him for 6 days, while I am well aware that he was online during that time because he posted on this forum on several occasions. Although I will add that Mark somehow thinks my brother should have come and picked up the motor, as if he had somehow RESPONDED to my email and had actually agreed to doing what I had asked, which was exactly what I was waiting for in the first place.

And Kracka, as to the Best Buy example, I would either issue a refund or refuse it on the spot IF that were applicable to this situation. If I had a customer service counter somewhere that someone could plop a 7 bolt to be examined quickly, then I would. Bringing it to Primo to be inspected is the same thing as the Best Buy associate opening the box, looking at the camera, and deciding if it's broken or not. Simple as that.

I'm not out for anyone's approval and I certainly don't need anyone to tell me that my actions are shady or that I'm a scammer.

[blageo23]

Just going to put my two cents in about swaping the motor. I had a perfectly running 7bolt motor in my car with only 80,000 on it. I had some extra money so I thought Id do the swap. I sold the motor and is probbly still running fine now (it was in swiftys ex gfs car white 1999 gsx). It a piece of mind thing. And if you are trying to make a great daily driver as he is doing then why not do all you can to keep it running for as long as you can.

[Kracka]

Originally Posted by daneatsv8s

And Kracka, as to the Best Buy example, I would either issue a refund or refuse it on the spot IF that were applicable to this situation. If I had a customer service counter somewhere that someone could plop a 7 bolt to be examined quickly, then I would. Bringing it to Primo to be inspected is the same thing as the Best Buy associate opening the box, looking at the camera, and deciding if it's broken or not. Simple as that. I'm not out for anyone's approval and I certainly don't need anyone to tell me if I'm right or not.

There is a big difference from something being 2 feet away and completely across town away. I also highly doubt that every Best Buy customer service counter employee is a trained camera technician. Go to Mark's house (or have him come to yours) and have him show you what's wrong with the engine so you can see it for yourself. If you feel you're not knowledgeable enough, bring someone along who is. OR, just forget the whole situation and simply say "No" to a refund and let Mark make a feedback thread about you so we hear his side of the story (online, I've already heard it in-person).

[daneatsv8s]

Why are you suggesting that I go to Mark's house and see for myself? That is what I said to do in the first place, that is the ENTIRE point of this thread. I offered for my brother to come pick up the block to have it inspected by himself as well as a third party (Like I said in my emails, I AM OUT OF THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW). Mark could have just as easily responded to my email and told me that he would drop the motor off at my house or at Primo. You act as if I am afraid of truth coming out, that I'm really hesitant to look at the motor. I don't really know how I can stress more that you're trying to tell me to do something that I suggested in the first place, so I guess I can just repeat it again: You're telling me to do something that I suggested in the first place.

[Alpha D]

Originally Posted by A//// Guy

This.

If it ran for mark for even a couple days, then it was sold "running." No reason to say its false advertising on the sellers part.

That doesnt make much sense? So i could sell my 6 bolt "running" on 2 cylinders and not have that be misleading. I think if a survey was to be held, and people given to choices between a running engine being junk or good to go being in decent condition they would pick the second choice. Im sure people wouldn't think it was junk right of the bat. Reasoning behind is wouldn't a seller would mention any imperfections if they are ''Honest''. I Say more things in writing.

[jrohner]

Did he install it, have an issue, and then check it over, or did he look it over and find an issue before installing it? If he had it running, any number of things (mostly oil related) could have happened. Plus, crank walk is something that he could have easily checked 5 seconds BEFORE buying it.

-if the 7-bolt was in good running condition, there is zero reason to put a 6-bolt in....sounds fishy.

To me, the bigger head bolts alone are reason enough to switch to a 6-bolt. Add in the (even more important) bigger, stronger rods and rod bolts, and there you go.