High Imp Injector help

[Halon]

So it seems the latest craze is some of these high impedance Bosch EV14 injectors. Apparently they are a newer technology then the old EV1 Bosch 1600's that so many of us are running (and most of us have come to learn they need constant attention because they just seem inconsistent). Main thing is they are a lot faster of an injector, which allows for much improved tunability and drivability. Reports of nearly stock feeling idle capabilities with these, even though they flow 2000cc. Also keep in mind these are high impedance, which means removing your resistor pack and jumpering the leads on the stock harness.

The main thing that has stopped me from purchasing some of these newer Bosh high impedance 2000cc injectors, is the fact that you will be dishing out somewhere between 800-1000 bucks for a set of 4. Just for reference, these Bosch ones are often referred to as EV14 injectors. Also another tid bit, is apparently the EV14 ones do not work with C16 fuel. Seal issues or something. But they are rated to be used with E85.

What I now noticed is Five-O motorsports is offering injectors that appear to be very similar to the EV14 high impedance Bosch 2000cc units. They are selling 2000cc EV6 high impedance injectors made by Denso. And it appears you can get a set of 4 of them, with the extenders to make them bolt up to a DSM, and wiring adapters to plug into our OEM harness, for $480 shipped. I am not an injector expert, but is there anyone on here that is that can comment about the difference between EV14 and EV6 injectors?

What I believe I understand so far is this.
-The old EV1 1600's are unstable mainly due to their slow response time, but also have poor spray patterns which doesn't help also. This is why they idle poorly, and also have low throttle issues.
- The EV14 2000's run/idle so much better, and most of that is due to them just being faster overall. This is why the allow the car to idle like stock. Also they have an improved spray pattern
- The EV6 2000's are pretty much identical to the EV14s when it comes to how fast they operate. They have a much improved spray pattern over the EV1's, but not quite as good as the EV14's.

So I guess I'm just looking for some feedback. The EV14's are basically priced out of my range. So I'm curious if these EV6's are a good alternative that are affordable.


Couple links:
EV6's from Five-O
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/4-Fiv...item5635c2fa1f

EV14's from FIC (Injector Dynamics also sells these but for a hair more):
http://www.fuelinjectorclinic.com/cg...ey=IS225-2150H

And found EV14's from Five-O, although these are sized for an evo, not dsm:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/4-Bos...item518fb98e52


Random exerpt I found regarding the differences between EV6 and EV14:
In 1992, Bosch introduced the EV6, which is thin like a pencil with the USCAR two-pin plug. Mustangs didn't get this injector until '99. The improved Bosch EV14 injector showed up in 2001. What makes the EV14 better than the EV6 are nice refinements that improve performance and reliability: improved spray pattern; a single molded body that will not leak; and fewer parts. The EV14 is interchangeable with the EV6.

[4g63tcrazy]

Also interested after seeing what people are talking about on the link forum. If they're everything they're said to be, then for that price they would be AMAZING injectors.

[FattyBoomBatty]

So, it says "don't use with Q16 and other oxygenated fuels." I remember 'non-oxygenated' gas was the cool thing for slow cars back like 8 years ago, which leads me to assume that most regular gas at the pump is oxygenated.

What I'm getting at is that you can't take a cross country road trip with these injectors, right?

[Halon]

I don't have an answer for you on that. But that information is in regards to the EV14 injectors correct? I think (not 100% sure) that the EV6's do not have the same issue regarding oxygenated fuel as the EV14's do.

But that is why I'm asking because I'd love to hear more from others who are smarter than I. All I know is what I'm reading about, and sometimes it's hard to decyfer the facts from the BS ya know!!!

[FattyBoomBatty]

Yeah, the EV14's. I wonder if that warning is like the warnings against using e85 on a stock fuel system. It'll rot your lines! (In 10 years).

[v8klla]

Email sent to FIC as I would like to know myself

[Shane@DBPerformance]

Oxygenated is more of a general term that could mean different things depending on the exact fuel though. It is known that Q16 is corrosive though and will eat away at your fuel tank, if you leave it in too long.

One of the biggest problems with the old 1600s are that they are not linear. More pulse width from the computer doesn't always actually give more fuel out of the injector(it can give less) at low flow, which makes them a pain to tune at idle/low load.

Not all of these 2000cc-2400cc injectors are the same or the same quality.

http://www.t1racedevelopment.com/en/...ed-equal-.html

http://injectordynamics.blogspot.com...4d71d5f993d297

[Kracka]

Oxygenated used to be a general term for ethanol or MTBE gasoline additives, but now if you see something called non-oxygenated it just means 100% gasoline and 0% ethanol. Regular gasolines contain between 0-10% ethanol depending on current market prices and state regulations. Also, remember that "ethanol" isn't actually pure ethanol and contains between 2-5% of a denaturant (depending on market prices) such as natural gasoline (not the same thing as natural gas).

[Halon]

Shane, those articles are mainly geared towards the EFI Wizard injectors, which I understand are EV6 correct? What I don't know, is are those EFI ones are the same or different then the ones Five-O is selling?

[Halon]

http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/domes...uel-injectors/

You can find some usefull info on their sales part of their site.

They have some specs on a lot of injectors, including the typical 1600's many of us are running now, as well as the EV6 Denso's and EV14 Bosch's.

Couple tid bits:
EV6 deadtime: 1.15ms @14v
EV14 deadtime: 0.45ms @14v

Anyone know what our ECU's are capable of? I am pretty sure DSMLink V3 just recently did an update where they were able to get it to respond down to like 0.8ms, but before that it was a little above 1ms I think. So someone like me who is still rocking V2 probably wouldn't be able to take advantage of the EV14's.

Or am I completely understanding this all wrong?

[Shane@DBPerformance]

You want a lower deadtime. Those EV14 would be almost 3 times as fast to respond as those EV6 going by those deadtimes. Stock DSM 450 injectors are set at around .650ms at 14v in the factory tune and stock Evo 560cc injectors are set at around .432ms in the factory tune.

Those EV6 injectors would really be a 1900cc, while the ID2000s are really 2200cc.

Those cheaper ones might work fine for you though, since the factory DSM ECU is excellent at handling even the 1600s compared to most ECUs. Hopefully they are linear though, that is one of the main problems with the 1600s, not just that they are a bit slow. You can make an injector respond faster by using a box like the FIC Easytune which raises voltage to the injectors from battery/alternator voltage to a constant 17v. Running injs at 17v versus ~13.5v will cut down their response time by 30%-70%.

[Halon]

Can a DSM ECU even control the EV14 injectors to their max speed capability? I guess I'm getting confused with all these values I'm seeing now.

I heard someone like me who doesn't have V3 might be looking at no better than 1.3ms deadtime adjustments. So, if I have an injector capable of .4ms, and an injector capable of 1.1ms, is that not completely besides the point because they are both lower than what the ECU can even do so they'd be running at the same speed right? Or am I just totally understanding all of this wrong?

Can you throw out examples of what the old 1600's respond at for comparisons sake? That's what I have now, and I'm looking to improve that. So it'd be cool to see what these crappy 1600's are and compare from there.

[Halon]

Sorry I've got another dumb question in regards to this chart:




Just as an example, say I'm running 45psi base fuel pressure on my talon. That basically puts me at the 3bar line. Now, lets say I am running 30psi of boost. That will raise my fuel pressure from 45 to 75psi. But, that boost is also going to be felt at the outside of the injector tips correct? So my fuel pressure is 30psi higher, but my injector tips are also seeing an additional 30psi on the outside, so the pressure differential is pretty much the same right? So I guess my question is, when I hit full boost, am I now looking at the 5 bar spot on the graph, or am I still at the same spot I was to start with because the increase in pressure was seen on both sides of the injector tip meaning the pressure differential is still the same?

Sorry, just trying to research this to death and do my best to understand it all, ha.

[v8klla]

Pressure in the graph above refers to fuel pressure not boost pressure I believe.

[Kevin 1G Drummer]

I would assume that since the pressure increases equally on both sides of the injector, that you would still be looking at the 3 bar line.

[Halon]

Originally Posted by Kevin 1G Drummer

I would assume that since the pressure increases equally on both sides of the injector, that you would still be looking at the 3 bar line.

I think you are right. So is it safe to say that unless you plan on running a base fuel pressure higher than 5bar (which at this point I have no intentions of doing due to limitations of my pump setup), these should still flow decently?

[v8klla]

Response from FIC:

I’ve been checking those injectors out for a while now, wondering what they are since there are really no Denso injectors that size available anywhere. We just got some in here to check and came to the same conclusion as the ID guys, which is that these are re-manufactured Denso injectors with a VERY crude modification (hit the internal pintle hard with a hammer) to reach the elevated flow. This process makes the injectors slower and more unpredictable at short pulse widths (idle) and is therefore not really the desired way to go, although some guys with huge flow requirements who care little about the idle may be OK with this. Since most guys using 2000cc have pretty expensive motors, this would be quite a chance to take.

[Halon]

What injectors are those? The Wizard ones? Everyone is comparing to the Wizard ones, but I'm looking at the ones from Five-O. Guy on the Link forums has a set of the ones from Five-O and he said he sees no evidence of hammering on the pintle.

I dunno...

[v8klla]

Second response:

We had Five-O, but they are all the same, EFI Wizard buys from Five-O who buys from the guys who modify them, or EFI Wizard may buy direct, but I don’t think so. Neither of them actually modify this injector. It’s a small and incestuous world ….

[Halon]

Interesting, thanks for the feedback. I'm tempted to try them, but at the same time scared if I end up just wasting $480...