1g Non Turbo Piston Questions?

[dumb_ricer]

I've been searching around A LOT, and boy are the reviews mixed on how much power the 1gNT pistons will handle.

On one hand, the person who did the VFAQ on turboing the NT longblock, is making 330whp on the stock NT pistons, but he is making sure that he doesn't detonate. On the other hand, some people on NABR and TOOONERS think they will break with anything over 10psi (not that boost pressure is really relevant).

My plan for a few months (while I build a 1g big rod/2g piston setup) is to swap a 1g Non Turbo shorblock into my 90 and throwing on all of the other shit from a Turbo. Supposively the NT's may or may not be tapped for the Knock Sensor, so if it's not, I will have to do that. I have a free NT shortblock with a bad head, and a good Turbo head and everything else.

What are your takes on the 1gNT pistons. So far what I have gathered without going overly overly indepth (cant find the pistons spec's sheet on either the T or NT) is that the NT's are 9:1 and the ring lands are either a. closer together or b. sit higher up in the piston then the turbo ones. I think as long as I keep detonation away then I should be good for a few months on 15-16psi.

Oh, and BTW, I am not at all worried about the lack of oil squirters, if the pistons want to overheat, thats fine, it only needs to last till late spring probably.

[niterydr]

Waste of time.
Why would you bother to waste all that time swapping a 1g n/t shortblock into your car? Just leave the car down for a few months, build the motor, and do it right.
I've never personally delt with a n/t shortblock, if I ever come across one, I'll let you come to the dumpster to check it out . It'll be next to the 7 bolts.
The "I am only doing it temporary" bullshit excuse is one of the main reasons so many dsm's are broken.
When you have a temp fuel system, temp intercooler setup, temp motor, temp turbo, temp tires, you have a temporary car, and the people wonder why the cars break?

[Shotgun!]

Beautifully put. Man, I hate DSMs! SQs even more so. The owners just cheapen them up...

[Kracka]

I agree with both Swanny and Reid; don't be dumb. Do it right the first time and be done with it.

[dumb_ricer]

Okay, so what is the oh so great advantage of a Turbo Shortblock over a Non Turbo shortblock besides pistons?

You could say oil squirters, which would be valid if you road raced or constantly beat the shit out of the car, but there are a hell of a hell of a lot of other cars with the same power without oil squirters, and hey, they do fine with the same piston to wall clearances that DSM's use.

But oil squirters also have downsides, like lower overall oil pressure in the motor, one more unlikely but potential problem (broken/fallen out).

I would do it right the first time, but who has really tested the NT shortblock to see just how bad it is? Oh wait, that'd be no one really. Everything I have read has been heresay. I hate when car communities see something different and go "oh noes, thats so bad, you shouldnt do that, joe bob my uncle did it once and it didnt work for him!!!1!!!one111!!, and then suddenly the whole community won't try it because joe bob's broke. The only person who has done it and documented it is doing fine with 330whp, which is more than I plan on making until I do nitrous.

And yes, you are in a community that does things ghetto. And I'm sure EVERY single one of you is guilty of it at some point in the time you have driven cars.

So who know's if it can handle some power? If it does, I'll be sure to let people know that a NT shortblock handled X power in my case, but I still wouldn't recommend them. In theory with smaller rings, smaller/thinner lands/rings sitting higher in block it *IS* a recipe for disaster, but whats a cracked ring land going to do? Oh no, it burns oil, time to go throw in the now done Turbo Shortblock. A whole nother 150 dollars, damn.

Oh, and For the record, I'm probably just going to swap the Turbo Pistons/rod's into the NT block and crank and do rings and bearings. I'll be sure to let you know how much more piston skirt scuffing there was in a few months due to lack of squirters.

[CVD]

YOU ASKED! Its a shitty idea to start with and they told you so. Such a shitty idea in fact that even at FREE its not worth doing the work for the swap. If YOU want to try it then go right ahead, nobody's gonna stop you!

[dumb_ricer]

Haha, I didn't mean to sound like a dick

[niterydr]

Originally Posted by dumb_ricer

Okay, so what is the oh so great advantage of a Turbo Shortblock over a Non Turbo shortblock besides pistons?

Advantages:
-Turbo friendly pistons (compression ratio, design).
-Oil squirters. They squirt the bottom of the piston to prevent detonation, and on a factory CAST piston, detonation will take your shit out quickly. There are also squirters in the rods to coat your cylinder walls.
-Since I have never ripped apart and checked a N/T block, I wouldn't know, I know that the blocks are very common, but I do not have one here infront of me to point out differences.

Originally Posted by dumb_ricer

You could say oil squirters, which would be valid if you road raced or constantly beat the shit out of the car, but there are a hell of a hell of a lot of other cars with the same power without oil squirters, and hey, they do fine with the same piston to wall clearances that DSM's use.

Its not about tuning. Street cars, or not perfectly tuned vehicles need all the help they can get in keeping shit cool, especially when using a somewhat fragile cast piston. Yes the 4g63 can handle a ton of power with factory components, you hear about it everday. You hear about that one guy that did "xxx" power on "xxx" setup. Do you want to know what I SEE everyday?
Blown motors from people thinking that they can make that same power out of it. (Yes the motors can handle a lot of power, but only in the right hands. You never hear about the failures.) Blown ranges from headgaskets to cracked pistons (ringlands usually), to jumped timing belts, etc.

Originally Posted by dumb_ricer

But oil squirters also have downsides, like lower overall oil pressure in the motor, one more unlikely but potential problem (broken/fallen out).

Yes you have lower oil pressure when they are squirting, but their are ways around that.

Originally Posted by dumb_ricer

I would do it right the first time, but who has really tested the NT shortblock to see just how bad it is? Oh wait, that'd be no one really. Everything I have read has been heresay. I hate when car communities see something different and go "oh noes, thats so bad, you shouldnt do that, joe bob my uncle did it once and it didnt work for him!!!1!!!one111!!, and then suddenly the whole community won't try it because joe bob's broke. The only person who has done it and documented it is doing fine with 330whp, which is more than I plan on making until I do nitrous.

And yes, you are in a community that does things ghetto. And I'm sure EVERY single one of you is guilty of it at some point in the time you have driven cars.

Yes, this community is filled with new members asking stupid questions and doing ghetto stuff. Its called a learning curve. Everyone has done something in one point or another that someone else can consider ghetto, it just depends upon where you are in the "newb" chain. Its not always about following hearsay, but doing stuff that makes sense. If you want to waste your time (which it would be to me, my time is very precious) go right ahead. Go do a write up on it and submit it to Allan. I would be curious as to your results. I can tell you that I have EXTENSIVE research and development, let alone hands on experience, with the 4g63, and I am saying you are wasting your time. There are much better solutions out there.

Originally Posted by dumb_ricer

So who know's if it can handle some power? If it does, I'll be sure to let people know that a NT shortblock handled X power in my case, but I still wouldn't recommend them. In theory with smaller rings, smaller/thinner lands/rings sitting higher in block it *IS* a recipe for disaster, but whats a cracked ring land going to do? Oh no, it burns oil, time to go throw in the now done Turbo Shortblock. A whole nother 150 dollars, damn.

Hmm..cracked ring land? Dead motor. No compression (or low), oil burning, etc.
What happens when it takes out your head as well?
Or shit gets into your oiling system and takes out your new turbo?
Why do things twice?

Originally Posted by dumb_ricer

Oh, and For the record, I'm probably just going to swap the Turbo Pistons/rod's into the NT block and crank and do rings and bearings. I'll be sure to let you know how much more piston skirt scuffing there was in a few months due to lack of squirters.

Go for it, let us know. Best of luck.

[santa]

I dont see why not to do it its next to free minus the cost of a headgasket from mitsu. The car is going to be down for a while getting the turbo short block ready, and its not like it takes long to put a engine in, especially since its fwd. Its something to have some fun with seeing what happens. As far as the whole head deal. we have like 4 or 5 other heads if this one blows.. no big deal really. Its not like theres much work into it at all. Its pretty much just for fun and to see how much a gay nt shortblock can handle.

Kevin

[1ViciousGSX]

If you can afford to do it twice, you can definately afford to do it once, the right way.

[santa]

Originally Posted by 1ViciousGSX

If you can afford to do it twice, you can definately afford to do it once, the right way.

Some how the cost of a headgasket is the same price as having a turbo shortblock rebuilt? I'm kinda lost there??

Kevin

[CVD]

Nobody's telling you guys not to do it. We're just saying its a dumb idea because it is a weak motor. You know this, we know this. No matter how many times or ways you tell us why you're doing it we arent going to go "Huh, maybe it aint such a bad idea after all."

Pointless thread!!!

[santa]

Well, all it is is for fun. To see how much the nt shortblock can hold up to until the Turbo shortblock is done being machined. and all the parts are bought. The only reason why its even a idea was becuase its for Free. I just see it as some fun for a little while until the real engine is built. I know its not a good idea at all as far as trying to make like some "big numbers" We are all car enthusiests here its just for fun.

Kevin

[dsm10sec]

Originally Posted by CVD

Nobody's telling you guys not to do it. We're just saying its a dumb idea because it is a weak motor. You know this, we know this. No matter how many times or ways you tell us why you're doing it we arent going to go "Huh, maybe it aint such a bad idea after all."

Pointless thread!!!

You have a very good point. Besides, there's a reason Mitsu made them different.

[niterydr]

Originally Posted by santa

Well, all it is is for fun. To see how much the nt shortblock can hold up to until the Turbo shortblock is done being machined. and all the parts are bought. The only reason why its even a idea was becuase its for Free. I just see it as some fun for a little while until the real engine is built. I know its not a good idea at all as far as trying to make like some "big numbers" We are all car enthusiests here its just for fun.

Kevin

Have fun.
Hey I have a great idea, see what your car does in the 1/4 mile in reverse?
I mean, its only money, and its "Just for fun".

[santa]

Originally Posted by niterydr

Have fun.
Hey I have a great idea, see what your car does in the 1/4 mile in reverse?
I mean, its only money, and its "Just for fun".

It was fun beating you with a $500 car also

[Shotgun!]

Damn, that was a fun night.

[niterydr]

Originally Posted by santa

It was fun beating you with a $500 car also

Yeah that was fun. Why didn't you want to go from a dig again?
It sure looked like a $500 car as well.

[santa]

Originally Posted by niterydr

Yeah that was fun. Why didn't you want to go from a dig again?
It sure looked like a $500 car as well.

I'm sure it was nice stairing at the tail lights huh? would you like to see the video???

Kevin